So don’t use the movies that are unsafe on hit. Guess what- at higher percentages, there are rather few. Yes, Ganondorf can get punished for using his air D+A on a fresh guy at 0%, but at about 30%, it’s suddenly not getting him killed anymore. Smashes and specials tend to be unsafe, but almost all jab chains and most tilts are safe on hit (many on block, too, assuming no P.Shield) Very few moves in Smash are unsafe on hit at all times- it’s how the game’s damage engine works. Just learn when you can’t throw out X attack like a retard and live with it.
My entire Brawl gameplan with Pit is based around controlling pacing and momentum. I guess I’ve been doing it wrong all this time. Even when it wins.
I think you’re being a little hard on the smashers. In anything competitive, eliminating randomness is an extremely good thing, as it increases the chances of the better player winning. There are some things that are just obviously random and should not be allowed in tournaments, such as items.
The thing about eliminating stages is that stages which provide too much hazard turn the game into player vs. stage instead of player vs. player, and should be eliminated to encourage competition. Similarly, stages which yield exactly one optimal, basic strategy (camping on Hyrule is a great example of this, in both Melee and Brawl) should be banned (of course, this is after testing and discussion, not because of one event) in order to encourage the level of play to develop.
Stages, items, that’s fine. Remove some of those. I personally think it’s warranted, and that discussion is for another time. Not this thread.
But modding to remove tripping? Seriously, if modding your Wii becomes the tourney standard, I’ll get rid of my SWF account and join right in the SWF hating. That’s like modding 3rd Strike to make Yun’s SA3 bar longer. Or modding MVC2 and making Cable’s AHVB keep the upward momentum (or just have a lot of lag) after the super is finished. It’s a fucking MECHANIC OF THE GAME (regardless of how bad it is). Deal with it or play something else.
It’s nothing like your examples. Those things are all certain to happen, and have no randomness to them. Tripping is random.
There’s no analogy from removing tripping to removing an aspect of other fighters like Street Fighter and Marvel vs. Capcom, because those fighters are quite a bit better than Brawl. But think rationally about what tripping is. It’s an uncontrollable mechanic that occurs randomly and puts one player in a winning position and another one in a losing position. It’s sensible to WANT to remove it. I don’t agree with how they are doing it, but I agree that, if the game wants to see a real tournament scene, it would be better without tripping.
And don’t worry. The SBR effectively decides what standard tournament play is, and, at worst, they’ll say “if you have a modded Wii, please use it.” They’d never be stupid enough to force the use of Ocarina as a tournament standard.
I’m not even going to touch the items thing. It’s clear that there is no convincing you on that.
But tripping. Let’s get into tripping.
Contrary to popular belief, Sakurai didn’t put in tripping because he wanted a party game or because he wanted everyone to share a good laugh. One of Sakurai’s stated motivations for Brawl is that he wanted it to become a more air-centric game.
You know the best way to avoid tripping? Stay in the air. It’s a retarded way to make a ground game risky, but that is the only logical purpose it serves. You fight on the ground, you know there’s a risk that you’ll trip and screw up.
Most of the characters’ safest and strongest moves are air based. Not only that, but staying on the ground leaves you open to tripping and throwing. The latter of which is one of the most powerful attack options in the game.
Sure, it is nice to remove it because it’s random and I am all for doing so in the name of fun. But just saying, there’s a reason for it and that reason is kind of the point of the game.
Oh boy here comes the random BS again. All I will say is that ST has ‘random’ dizzy mechanics that can greatly alter the outlook of the game.
Before anyone says “Oh but SFHD is taking it out!” yeah there’s a big difference between a developer of a game altering it and some scrub ass people who just can’t handle the fact that they might trip. Oh but it’s random! That sure does make it so the best players rarely win right?
Everyone, I’m trying to discuss this intelligently, without insulting anyone. Let’s remain calm, ok?
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You know the best way to avoid tripping? Stay in the air. It’s a retarded way to make a ground game risky, but that is the only logical purpose it serves. You fight on the ground, you know there’s a risk that you’ll trip and screw up.
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You can’t say you know why Sakurai threw in tripping. While it’s possible he did it for the reason in quotes, it’s just as possible that he did it to avoid competition, since he has gone on record saying that he does not like the notion of the winner coming out feeling good and the loser coming out feeling like he has no had fun.
Now, why tripping exists isn’t actually important. It’s random, and if removing it is shown to have no negative consequences (in other words, it doesn’t somehow alter the tier list), then the game is better without it.
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Oh boy here comes the random BS again. All I will say is that ST has ‘random’ dizzy mechanics that can greatly alter the outlook of the game.
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That mechanic is quite a bit different than tripping. It hardly affects your approach game or whether or not you lose for approaching correctly. Snakes correct approach is to f-tilt from maximum range, but if he trips, he hasn’t done anything wrong and he still gets punished.
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Before anyone says “Oh but SFHD is taking it out!” yeah there’s a big difference between a developer of a game altering it and some scrub ass people who just can’t handle the fact that they might trip. Oh but it’s random! That sure does make it so the best players rarely win right?
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I don’t really see your point. Matches have been lost because of tripping, so the better players have lost from tripping. And it’s not about whether or not the effect is negligible; no one disagrees that they can live without it. But why should they when they have the option to remove it? It negatively effects gameplay and can be removed without negatively effecting gameplay, so what is the problem with removing it, exactly? Going against the developers wishes? But competitive smash does that anyway.
Everyone is aware that the code only eliminates random tripping, right? Things like Diddy Kong’s bananas and Meta Knight’s d-tilt still force tripping.
The problem I see here isn’t that they’re hacking the game, because you’re right it’s their own discs and they can do whatever the hell they want with it.
The thing is, all the things they are hacking Brawl to do are simply just making SSBB into SSBM. If they don’t want Brawl, why don’t they just play Melee? Saying things like “They can’t play with all the cool new characters” is horsecrap because I know they’d gladly give up the new characters for their so called “Superior Gameplay”
And to top it all off, they say that they ARE the Smash community, yet they show such a high amount of disrespect for the game it’s almost ironic.
They’re not turning it into Melee. They’re eliminating an uncontrollable random element that negatively effects gameplay. Turning it into Melee would require actual hacking, and not silly AR codes.
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The thing is, all the things they are hacking Brawl to do
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The only thing that has the slightest chance of becoming accepted into the community is the no-tripping code. Please, don’t try and make it seem like we’re using several AR codes. The majority of people who want something other than no-tripping (like additional hit stun) are the people who don’t like Brawl anyway.
I still think it’s a horrible idea. I wouldn’t mind if the game was patched BY NINTENDO and tripping was removed. Wouldn’t mind it at all. Heck, I think fighting games SHOULD be patched. I also think Nintendo shouldn’t add characters at the last second without making an attempt at balancing them (Snake). Yes, Nintendo really dropped the ball with some of the things they did with SSBB. I mean, I hold that tripping is the WORST mechanic in ANY fighting game known to man. Even worse than the stupid guard meter in KOF Maximum Impact.
With that said, I will be VERY disappointed with the SWF community if modding your system becomes the tourney standard. I’d be more disappointed if it was even allowed for tourneys. I shouldn’t have to explain why as I think it’s pretty obvious.
This is not only untrue, but also unnecessary. When the chance that the best player will win is already 99+%, you are grasping at straws to find a reason to please YOURSELF as a player (a player who realistically isnt ‘protected’ by anything that ensures the better player wins every time anyway).
In my experience, I’ve seen about as many people actually punished for tripping as I have people who’s trip saved them from something. Also, the amount of actual tripping you see as the skill of the players goes up gets less and less. Good players have already found ways to minimize how often this happens, and even if they are not talking about it, it is part of the a skillset you probably want if you are playing high level brawl.
So? That doesn’t draw any conclusion about why tripping was put in. It is, however, reasonable to deduce that tripping makes the ground game riskier. And Sakurai has also gone on record saying he wanted more of an aerial focus in Brawl.
Really, theoretical semantics will go nowhere here. My point is that tripping still makes Brawl’s ground game riskier and encourages more fighting in the air where you can’t trip. While it is random when you’re on the ground, improving and shifting more focus to your air game will nearly nullify any and all chance of tripping.
Point: Like it or not, it’s still a part of the game. If Sakurai patched Brawl to remove tripping, then it should become the standard, but a hack to remove tripping is little more than a house rule. House rules should not become competitive standards. That’s how I feel about it.
I’ve explained already that it is extremely unlikely that a Wii with Homebrew Channel installed will become the tournament standard. I hope they do not change the tournament standard to require Wiis with HBC, because that would be ridiculous. Similarly, allowing it is questionable, as johns can arise easily. If, for example, I play another player and lose, I can complain about how it was not on a no-trip setup. Until something effective that doesn’t require HBC is invented, it will not become standard, and hopefully won’t be allowed at major tournaments. If they do allow it, I can see it happening only for semi-finals and finals.
[quote=“Keits, post:52, topic:46038”]
This is not only untrue, but also unnecessary. When the chance that the best player will win is already 99+%, you are grasping at straws to find a reason to please YOURSELF as a player (a player who realistically isnt ‘protected’ by anything that ensures the better player wins every time anyway).
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You’re just throwing percentages out there. You have no idea what the actual probability of a superior player beating an inferior one is. And while it’s true that the effect of tripping isn’t incredibly high, matches have still been lost because of tripping.
[quote=“Keits, post:52, topic:46038”]
In my experience, I’ve seen about as many people actually punished for tripping as I have people who’s trip saved them from something. Also, the amount of actual tripping you see as the skill of the players goes up gets less and less. Good players have already found ways to minimize how often this happens, and even if they are not talking about it, it is part of the a skillset you probably want if you are playing high level brawl.
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The first thing that needs to be addressed is your opening statement in this paragraph. “In my experience” is not a tool worth arguing with. What you’ve seen does not constitute the entirety of the scene, so please try to avoid generalizations based on insufficient sample spaces.
Now, supposing you’re right, and that your chances of losing because of tripping are equal to your chances of winning because of tripping, then there still exists a random element that effects how you play! Really, is it fair to say “even though tripping can kill you, it can also save you from getting killed?” I don’t think that makes it any better of a mechanic.
I think that, realistically, we can’t implement this no-tripping code. Wii save files are stored as a 128-bit hash, which means we can’t really hack them to support AR codes. This means that an AR for the Wii, or HBC, are the only ways to implement the no-tripping code. Because of this, and the fact that it is unethical to require someone to void their warranty in order to make their copy of Brawl abide by tournament standards, it is unlikely that the no-tripping code will ever go into effect as a tournament standard.
Still, it doesn’t change the fact that Brawl without random tripping is superior (from a competitive standpoint, obviously) to Brawl with random tripping.
There are hundreds of highly competitive games with plenty of random elements in them. Fighters too.
Run the game as is and you will see that the odds of a weaker player beating a stronger one are just that, less than 1%, just like in any other fighting game full of randomness. And thats just ONE match. Its 2 out of three, at worst, usually.
-Voiding my warranty just to get it in the game.
-Catering the the smash whiners who quite literally use the word ‘random’ too damn much.
-Making sure each tournament setup has this hack in order to make it fair for everyone (finals only is stupid).
Do I need to continue? I can talk about how altering the game this early on is especially stupid. What if there is an technique that requires tripping to use? Really, what if something as strange as trip cancelling or wave tripping surfaces?
I don’t see what all the fuss is about. People have been hacking games since…I have no idea when, actually. Maybe the 1980’s?
Is this going to become the tourney standard? I see no signs of that happening.
Sure some people may run this at a tournament. But if you set up and organize a tourney you get to use whatever rules you want. Then people show up or they don’t.
