1

I wanted a fancy title for this but eh, live and learn right?

Anyways, I thought I would start this topic off. This is a remake idea topic. Its kinda for kicks to see what would happen.

Characters (Max 21): Mario, Luigi, Bowser, Yoshi, Donkey Kong, Link, Ganondorf, Kirby, King Dedede, Fox, Captain Falcon, Samus, Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Mewtwo, Ness, Marth, Snake, Sonic, New: Megaman (this is overdue), Sir Daniel Fortesque (from Medievil)
Yeah I know a lot of characters were skipped, but I didn’t want too many characters in this iteration.

Universal Changes:
Max items: 15-20.
Hit stun is in, just below the Melee amount.
Overall game speed is faster.

I’ll post character changes later. Too tired to think atm lol.

2

It would be interesting to see this series given a reboot. Anyway, I quite like your choices. It has the original twelve which is the most important part. I assume Zero Suit Samus is playable as well? I think the only other character that could be added would be Toon Link.

Anyway, here are some changes of mine with some new ideas thanks to a gameplay discussion I set up over at Smashboards.

Changes

  1. NO RANDOM TRIPPING
  2. Hitstun is equal for everyone.
  • Meaning a move that inflicts a certain amount of hitstun to one character will be the same to everyone else.
  1. Overall faster, offensive and evasive based game. (Will go on with this in a moment.)
  2. Removal of the 40 frame penalty for trying to tech early.
  3. Running into a jump will give the jump more horizontal distance.
  4. Removal of stale moves in favor of a new scaling system.
  5. Chain grabs removed.
  6. DI control somewhere between Melee and Brawl.

Character changes (Just for some that come right off my mind.)

Mario: Down B becomes a power switcher. Choose between Fireball, Iceball, Tanooki, and Luma. The only changes to Mario regarding this move is what the B move will be.

Luigi: Down B becomes Poltergust, a move that reels the enemy to you. (Think Seth’s Tanden Engine).

Bowser: Will go into this in later.

Yoshi: Now has a tether grab; Tongue range is longer, but with reasonable recovery. Can jump out of shield.

Link: Improved Up B Recovery; Will go into more of this later.

Ganondorf - Just flat out new moveset. This is a reboot after all.

Dedede: Removal of Chain Grabs at least.

Samus: Turn Missles into Ice Missles; Freezes the opponent, but freeze can now be escaped by moving the control stick like crazy. Super Missle is still in tact. More to go into.

Mewtwo: Just fix this guy.

Ness: Change specials to those he actually learns; PK Fire becomes PK Rockin. Same move, different look.

New Mechanics:

  1. Tether Air Grabs - Tethers like Hookshot and Grapple Beam reel the opponent to you.
  2. Anti-Air Tether - Bring the opponent from the air to you with tethers like like Zamus’ Up B. No damage is inflicted.
  3. Power Squat Jump - A chargeable super jump for select characters, such as Bowser, Ganondorf, and Samus.
  4. Air Dash - Tapping -> -> or <- <- in the air to do a dash in that direction. Perfect for evasion and getting in when necessary.
  • This could very well be the most important mechanic added.
  1. Tech Throw - This is a counter grab. If you are about to be grabbed, try to grab the opponent at the same time to get yourself out of it. Both players involved have the same amount of recovery from the tech. With this in mind, tethers are not techable, but these character have close range grabs as well.
  2. Shield Burst - At the cost of being able to shield or dodge for 30 seconds, this move, activated by pressing A+Jump+B (or something else) acts as a get off me move. This is ideal for getting out of combos and juggles.
  3. Super Meter - More or less the same as that in Guilty Gear and BlazBlue. The super in question is a balanced out final smash that is activated by using 50% of a full meter (or 50 meter points so to speak). This final smash would be activated by pressing the R button.
3

Let me ask you two this: How will ofl this convince people who have never played Smash to buy this?

4

First off, I want to apologize for my profanity the other day. I just don’t care for the Blue Ocean Strategy, and it’s a flawed one in general, IMO.

I think the most important thing to do regarding raising interest is to show that there’s more than meets the eye with this game and it’s worth their time. How to go about this exactly, isn’t an easy one. One thing to do would be to have a nationwide tour (mostly Japan, America, Canada, and Europe) for a demo of the game. People would have the chance to go ahead and play the game. I don’t know if it’d be a good idea to actually use mechanics and such as selling points.

For the most part, you need a good advertising campaign and good advertisements. Of course, you’re looking at this from a financial perspective. Heck, what you just asked remindeds me of the network execubots from Futurama: “Yes, but will it get them off their tractors?”:rofl: The only thing I can think of that would be detrimental to the series is that this is a reboot, meaning a lot of characters would be cut. Of course, that’s not to say a lot of them couldn’t be brought back in the following release or an update ala SSFIV.

5

I didn’t like how Zamus took away all of the mystery behind Samus away, and I didn’t like how it made Samus the sex symbol of Smash. Also, I want to use Fusion Samus as that can open up more move sets due to it being a different suit.

I like most of your ideas and changes. The Super Meter idea is something that Smash could use to balance out its problem with Supers, and it would make the Smash Ball inherently balanced, oddly enough. The Smash ball could fill 25-50% meter without it being broken.

Shield Burst should be reduced to ten seconds, otherwise I agree with this greatly.

Tether Air-grabs would work fine as long as they don’t define air play. Anti-air tethers would be good too.

Air dash is an amazing idea, as it helps characters reliant on shitty recoveries get back onto the stage.

Tech Throw is actually done in TMNT Smash-Up and it acts exactly like it does here.

Squat Jumps seems…idk. It seems like a useless technique right now.

R would be a good place for supers, but maybe a motion imput for the super as well?

As for buffs and nerfs:

Mario: I like the idea of Mario being able to switch up his normal special with down-B. It promotes more strategy than anything else.
Cape Extends to Dr.Mario’s original length from Melee and it helps him reach the ledge easier.
Super Jump Punch extends higher.

Luigi: Poltergust as a down-b should have been done to differentiate Luigi from Mario, but I am iffy on him losing Tornado simply for recovery reasons.
You can up-b out of Green Missile at anytime.
Up-b kills at 70% when hit up close (medium characters).
Green Missile misfire is no longer random. To do this, hold the charge with B and release with A. Consume 25% of meter.

Bowser:
Tapping B now shoots fireballs and holding B gives him his flame breath.
Bowser’s up-b resets when he is hit during the animation. i
Up-B has better horizontal and vertical recovery.
Side-B is now controllable on the throw. Forward is a headbutt, down is a body slam, up is the spinning slam, and behind is a backward throw.
Down-B is invincible on the end lag.
Smash-A kills as early as 80% (med weight characters)
Smash-A has less start-up.

Link:
Link can throw his Hookshot up as an anti-air tether: (Up+Z)
Link is now medium weight.
Recovery has better horizontal and vertical recovery.
Link is invincible during his air recovery, but end lag is increased.
Bombs kill at 100% (med characters)
Arrows are now fire.

Yoshi:
Double Jump goes higher and is invincible at any percent.
Has the longest and hardest shield in the game.
Up-B has more vertical recovery.
D-Smash kills at 100% (medium weight characters)
Eggs inflict more damage and Yoshi can cancel his run into a throw and throw eggs behind him.
D-air inflicts less damage.
F-air has less start-up.

Samus: Her moves are drastically altered due to her being in the fusion suit.
Samus is a light weight.
Samus no longer has a tether grab.
Missiles are now Ice missiles and now freeze the opponent for 1 second, allowing for combos. Doing Side-B and holding it unleashes a super missile.
Up-B has slightly better horizontal recovery, and has more vertical recovery.

These are all I can think of for buffs ATM. I think Samus in the Fusion suit would buff her overall.

6

Well, with Samus. It was common knowledge amongst gamers that Samus is a woman, at least she’s not sexed up as Bayonetta (who is still awesome, btw). Your idea of this reinvented Samus sounds like a hybrid between the two. It seems like a weird choice to use Fusion Samus as the base, but that’s only because it’s not her iconic outfit. The other things I’d change is make her less floaty and include a morph ball mode for her with Up Taunt. Her grapple beam, IMO, should stay, but hers and Link’s range is shortened for air use only (just a little longer range rise than traditional air throws).

Your idea of the Smash Ball’s new function is a great one. It’s a great way to still keep it while letting those that don’t care for items and/or competitive players still have the Final Smash available. Shield Burst’s length was just off the fly. If I was making the game, the length would likely shorten. PSJ is an interesting one. A motion for the Final Smash would make sense, but I know it won’t be accepted by the community (then again, a number of those ideas weren’t accepted either in some cases). Just a button input would pacify them.

7

Well, first, I’d suggest that you read Blue Ocean Strategy before saying it’s flawed. You may find that it is actually quite interesting. However, you’re free to not like it or disagree.

Thanks for the apology though.

People hate to talk about business because they find it boring, especally in entertainment, which is suppose to be fun. But actually, the two are intertwined.

People buy entertainment to be entertained. So, sales of en entertainment medium is actual a measure of how many people it entertained. If it’s good, these users become passionate about it. They then become the best advertising for the product and tell all their friends and family. The cycle then continues. This is how a phenomenon can take off. I talk about growing the market because it’s really about growing the users. Entertainment is hard because you don’t need it. They have to compete with not only other entertainment mediums, but also disinterest. For instance, hard to learn fighting games with learning curves may not be beneficial to most people. They have a busy schedule and have lots to do. They don’t have time to learn a game, so they move to listening to music or watching TV. Or, maybe they are so busy that they just don’t do any of that. So, it’s tough.

Growing the user base is good because you can keep yourself afloat. These users can then advertise the game for you, and the product and move. Ever notice has Nintendo has little advertising for most of their games, but they tend to do better then most. This is word of mouth at work. These users keep telling everyone they know and it grows and grows. For use, it means more people are playing a game we like.

So sales are not just numbers on a chart but are customers. Entertainment is so awesome because you can never have a boring moment because all sales are just the number of those who are being entertained and growth is just more people being entertained.

8

Other than that you’re stating a lot of business stuff that I know for the most part, I’ll focus on the bold.

As I’ve mentioned before, learning curves will always exist. Ironically, because SSB is of a different sub-genre than Street Fighter or Tekken, you have people that can be just as clueless, if not more so, than in other fighting games. If we want to improve on making the game accessible, one good solution would be an in-game tutorial mode that teaches you the basics and tests you by applying what you’re taught. Basically, it’s a crash course for the game. Of course, it can’t teach you everything and some things can only be learned by fighting people like mindgames. Another thing to help new gamers would be to have a website they can go to for help and learn about competitive play mentioned in the game. I think that’s all you can really do. You can’t walk them through the mechanics and such of the game. At least with this stuff, the learning curve is lowered because you now know what to do and with a pseudo-encyclopedia at your disposal for quick reference.

Just remember that sales are not an absolute indicator of how good something is. People could buy something only to be disappointed in it.

EDIT: I’ve thought about this whole accessibility thing more. I was thinking about one of the Sean Malstrom articles and how he mentions getting rid of obstacles. I don’t remember 100% of it, but I think he has the right idea, but the wrong idea to go about it. This tutorial thing eliminates that painful obstacle of not knowing to do anything and teaches how to apply what you’re taught. Thus, we don’t need to dumb down the gameplay for casuals and first timers to the series, which I don’t think is part of the same crowd as the Wii series people. We just need a way to break them in. Heck, I have to admit that SFIV’s trial modes, while not perfect, were a way to break into the game for me.

9

Well, first, you have to understand that you have to make the game around people’s not, not have people work their lives around the game. This is one problem with fighting games. You have to learn the very specific controls. You have to buy a $90 stick (and then store the beast). You have to put in quite a lot of dedication. Most people don’t want to do this. So what your suggesting is evading the problem, not solving it. People are going to want to go to website to learn the game. They want to play the game. It is very crucial in multiplayer games because people buy this to play with others, so it has to be ready to play outside the box. People don’t want to have to learn a complex game. If they can’t jump into the game, it goes back to the store. Games only have a small amount of time to grab someone’s attention. They have to be playable immediately.

So that brings us to tutorials. The problem with them is people want to jump into game immediately. Tutorials only slow down the process and are boring. Take Excite Trucks. You want to jump into multiplayer, but it is locked and you have to complete the tutorial. Tutorials also don’t make up for bad game design. The best selling games never needed a tutorial. Did you need a tutorial to play Super Mario Bros, or Tetris, or Duck Hunt. Most game don’t have or need a tutorial. If the thought it “This game needs a tutorial,” then it’s not a very good game.

To finish up, on sales, remember that a bad game does not sell forever, and they tend to stale out. These games get sold back to retailers and receive price cuts. Metal Gear Sold 4 did this in Japan. Street Fighter 4 was defiantly like this. Smash Brothers is doing something right as people never trade this game back and it never goes down in price. Melee was $50 though almost the entire life of the Gamecube. Games sell by word of mouth, so good sales tend to indicate the game is successful as people are the biggest advertising for a game, and dissatisfied customers tell their friends and family not to buy it.

And I did think the trail mode in SF4 was a good idea.

10

I wouldn’t say that people have to work their lives around the game. Look at Daigo. He has a job of his own, and while he was growing up, he could only play SF in his spare time. As for buying a stick, it’s not necessarily true, it’s just highly recommended if you go competitive since it’s the best for execution, but it’s not required. The dedication you speak of mostly applies, again, to tournament play. It’s no different than a sport.

The How to Play video that’s been present in all three SSB games should suffice for casual players.You can’t play right out of the box, since, as I’ve mentioned before, you can’t get rid of the learning curve, only make it as low as possible. That, and you have people that are either too stupid or something else that might not find the game all that intuitive, but I digress.

I was thinking of the tutorial as a supplemental mode. You don’t HAVE to go through it, but you do get trophies or something else for completing it so there’s an incentive to go through it. As for the games you mentioned, those games only had two buttons to begin with. There’s not much to learn when playing those kind of games. Some genres are also just lucky in that department. Anyway, all the 3D Zeldas have had ingame tutorials. I suppose those aren’t very good games, either.

That’s a very, very, flawed statement. Some games, for whatever reason, sell a lot at first then less people start buying it such as Modern Warfare 2. Mario games have this tendancy to avoid the second part and tend to sell for a long time. Of, course, these games do star the face of videogames so it’s not that big of a surprise. Then you have games who don’t sell a lot every week, but they constantly stay within a certain range, aka a slow burner. As for MGS4 doing bad in Japan, are you referring to people returning the game? That probably has to do with it being a single player game considering that the game got rave reviews.

You got anything to say regarding this or the remake, Fluga?

11

Smash is so simplistic that anyone could be able to do any of the above. Not only that, but the main reason why Brawl sells is because of Nintendo characters and kids, not the competitive community who obviously did all they could to Make Melee viable, only to get slapped in the face by Sakurai, who didn’t care about competitive gaming in the first place. Its to be expected at the same time though, Smash never has been released in an Arcade, so no one from Japan plays it.

Also, we could launch a new Dojo explaining the changes and providing video footage on how to do said techniques. Its not really that hard to appeal to the casual and competitive fanbase at the same time.

Btw KumaOso: I have more Final Smash ideas.

Mario:
Forward R: Mario shoots many fire balls at once that have massive knock back.
Up R: Mario does the Ultra Jump Punch, which can KO enemies who could jump in on him.

LuigiL
Down R: Luigi does his dance. This time however, enemies move at normal speed, and cannot fall asleep.
Forward R: Luigi shoots himself at his opponent in an ultra charged missile.

Samus:
Down R: Samus lays a power bomb out on the field.
Forward R: Samus fires a huge beam of energy. Has a larger radius.

Link:
Forward R: Triforce Slash. It now goes towards Link’s opponent, whether they are in the air or not.
Down R: Link puts on the Fierce Deity’s Mask and is invulnerable for a short time.

Bowser:
Down R: Bowser becomes Giga Bowser for a short time.
Forward R: Bowser summons the star rod and makes it rain stars.

Thats all from me for now xD.

12

That is a rather ignorant statement. Maybe Sakruai’s focus wasn’t on the competitive community, but to say that no one plays the game in Japan due to the fact that it wasn’t released in the arcades is a rather dumb statement.

Let me prove my point. According to this, sales in Japan hit one million copies sold, and that was a little more than a year ago.

13

Yes, it’s rather extreme to say that it isn’t played because of a lack of an arcade scene. However, I can’t say how much of a difference it would make if it did have one since I’m still new to the fighting game scene.

As for Sakurai’s focus, his mentality is basically that it doesn’t matter if you win or lose because everyone should be having a laugh while playing. This wouldn’t be bad if he wasn’t so damn concerned about the beginning players and not wanting to hurt their feelings because they lose or see their placing on a ranking list.

Those sales figures are from almost two years ago. If VgChartz, who I hate to cite, is any indication, it’s only reached 2 million in Japanese sales. I think a better thing to ask is how many people still play this game extensively and how many put it up on the shelf after a while.

@ Fluga
Mario’s Metsu Hadouken and Metsu Shoryuken seem nice. I’m still trying to adjust to the fact that these Final Smash would kill someone on average. As long as their not guaranteed KOs like Zelda’s Light Arrows at 0%, then it’s fine.

Luigi’s ZA WARUDO seems like a good balance for the move. Maybe his other move should be Shinryuken.

How big is Samus’ Power Bomb explosion? Depending on the size, it’s a nice use for space control. Samus’ beam should not be be aim-able if that larger radius is present.

Link’s are good. Fire Diety shouldn’t be too strong. Along with Giga Bowser, these two shouldn’t have hyper armor so they can actually be killed while in that state. Any other Final Smash like these should have similar conditions.

Any reason why you decided to go with two Final Smashes?

14

I’ve seen high level Japanese play, and some of it is very boring to watch, and I have never seen a high level japanese player go to a National Us tournament, which makes me think that Smash is pretty much dead in Japan. Fighting games NEED arcade games in Japan to even have a competitive scene. It not being in an Arcade kinda killed it right there.

Brawl has sold more in the US than Japan though, and thats because it can thrive in the US WITHOUT an arcade scene, and the reason why I say this is because just about every competitive fighting game (Street Fighter, King of Fighters, Guilty Gear, Blazblu) has an arcade release, and this has ultimately kept the scene alive.

Sakurai’s main focus was what ultimately killed Smash’s competitive scene and reduced it to ashes among the wind. His philosophy has ALWAYS been casually minded.

I wanted a variety of Final Smashes for each character for more depth of strategy.

Samus’s beam cannot be aimed, but the bigger blast radius should help her hit enemies now. It also comes out faster too. The explosion off of the power bomb is as big as the Smart Bomb explosion, and its more powerful and lasts longer too.

Giga and Fierce Deity forms only last about 5-7 seconds on screen, allowing enough time to get a kill in, and Fierce Deity doesn’t have no-flinch frames, but Giga Bowser does.

Supers can only be activated when an opponent has taken 90-100% damage.

15

If it weren’t for the fact that this series features Nintendo characters, I don’t think this series would last as long as it has. The mindset the man has goes against the inherently competitive nature of the genre.He’s trying to turn it into something it’s not if he and everyone else considers it a fighting game.

The supers being activated at that condition seem kind of high. What I had in mind was that it filled up by inflicting and receiving damage. This way, it acts as a comeback AND a finisher.

16

That’s not true. Super Street Fighter 4 is not getting an arcade release, so by your logic it will fail in Japan, right? Wrong. The reason why Smash has failed in Japan is because of reputation. Capcom has spent years in building up the Street Fighter name, and it is now one of the best selling names in gaming today.

Also by that logic, less arcades in Japan, because of the economy, means that the quality of Japanese EVO players should be going down while American players who had since adapted to the console as the standard are going up. This is simply not true. The smart Japanese players like a Diago have begun to adopt to console; While granted they miss out on the social aspect of an arcade, at least they are being competitive in American tournaments because they are practicing on the version of the game that has the most exposure today, and that is console.

17

One thing to point out is the top three best selling fighting games in Japan are SF2: The World Warriors, SF2 Turbo, and then Brawl. The other two Smash games proceed it, and then it’s downhill from there. The point is that in terms of raw sales, Smash has not failed and beats out most fighting games. Although, in terms of competitive Smash, I have no idea. Sorry to interrupt.

EDIT:actually, you mentioned sales in another post, so excuse me. I’ll leave the post, but I guess disregard it.

18

Oh yeah, just thought I would clarify that I changed the title.

As for the sudden replacement with Issac and Dan, Dan is too awesome and fits quite well.

19

Bump?

Also, Stages from Melee and 64 will be here.

64: Castle, Dream Land, Metal Mario Stage, Final Destination
Melee: Battlefield, Jungle Japes, Fountain of Dreams, Yoshi’s Story

More later

20

This really needed a bump.

For Luigi, I think the Green Missile just needs to be done with. It doesn’t really fit Luigi at all. Just give him the Poltergust.

I’m still not all for Fusion Suit Samus as the playable Samus. Also, for the changes in her specials, I’m thinking of her having her missles aimed up and down at an angle like Link’s Boomerang. Also, her Missiles and Charge Shot act like C. Viper’s specials - they can be feinted by pressing B at the beginning of the attack.

There needs to be a edge grab limit to get rid of planking once and for all.