There’s nothing special about the Z button. It just inputs R+A. The Smash players have invented a bunch of terms for things that are simply just kara cancels. Boost Grabbing and Boost Smashing are just kara canceled dash attacks. Glide Tossing is just a kara canceled roll (they usually use the C-Stick because that will also input a direction so they can roll one way while throwing the other). It’s usually much easier to input A then Z than to hit either button twice in the cancel window.
As has been mentioned, as long as you can get past the obstacle of needing some kind of analog input for walking and running, you should be able to make a stick that has all the necessary funtionality.
My way to do it would be to have it made with an ultra sensitive stick made with some sort of separation between the “short” and “full” hop jump posiotns, sorta like how you can feel one gear from another in a “stick” car… Or just a stick made for kof, whatever.
possible extra buttons: sensitive, 2 levels of depression “jump” button, “smash” button.
Again, the most important thing to have here is a really nice, sensitive stick with which one can tell the difference between a short and normal hop just by the pressure felt by your hand and arm, as one can tell what gear he/she is shifting into in a car, but less jerky.
For example, you could just pop the stick a little to sh, but you’d have to HOLD it upwards for a little longer to full hop. It would have to be a bit more stiff than the gc analog stick, for reasons already stated.
you know, I was just thinking about the possibilities of thinking up an honest stick design method specifically for Smash that wouldn’t compromise movement capabilities. Let me run this by you guys.
My first thought was to look into analog sticks. WOW those are expensive ($150 easy). Threw that idea out right quick. I then started to think of the key reasons for even NEEDING analog control at all. The only major value is tilt vs. smash. There’s a minor value in shield aiming, and even more minor of attack aiming. All of these are functions of the left analog stick, yet none of them require analog control, however. Just two steps of it.
This led me to search for a classic stick style: 8-way + top button. This would require a little bit of electronics knowledge and a couple extra parts to do so, but one should be able to theoretically wire an 8-way to the left analog with utilizing the button to route the signal through a resistor prior to connection or not. I’m not an electronics buff to that degree, but I’d assume this would be possible. One wouldn’t route off the signal entirely, just enough voltage to allow the low-end signal through, treating the movement like a tilt instead of a smash while holding the top button, and vice versa. That takes the big problem out of the way.
The easier thing to figure out would be a proper layout. I’d assume that the best method would still to have a button for jump, so if I understand correctly, that would bring about 4 ideal buttons: A, B, Jump, Shield, and 4 buttons for c-stick emulation (analog is not required here). I’m pretty sure a standard arcade stick layout wouldn’t go so well, but I could be wrong. My guess is that the ideal setup would involve the 4 c buttons to be aligned in a cross, the shield to be accessible by thumb, and the a/b/jump buttons accessible somewhere above and in between. I’m picturing running of a MK3 layout base and building on that with the necessary buttons. Any thoughts? Might consider bringing this to tech talk as well. My initial research also led me to the limitations of said sticks to Happ varieties, which may or may not be adequate.
I wonder how much it would cost to have a larger scaled analog stick like that in most controllers, but with a ball on top like typical joysticks and with either a visible octo or square gate. Anyway,I support this idea 150%. I was thinking about this possibility since we might not have the oh so precious Gamecube controller available for the next Smash, whenever that will be. Anyway, my idea for a button setup would be this.
B X L Z1
A Y R Z2
Thumb on A, next three fingers on B, X, and L. Y is a short-hop button. R is for a proposed super meter idea of mine.
Why do I get the deja vu that people don’t know that it already exists, and already works? MC Cthulhu has Smash modes and works awesome.
To the previous four posters: Your ideas are a good start, but don’t take into account different shield strengths; the triggers are both analog and digital, with different shield affects for all of the way pulled and partly pulled, at least in Melee. The Smash mode in the MC Cthulhu already does everything you’re describing, and then some.
I thought the MC Cthulhu and the like were simply running off Wiimote-only style controls? That’s where I thought of this option as considerably less limiting.
As far as shield strengths do exist in Melee, but not Brawl.
I see. Though my focus was less on the function and more the application. The same exact function exists, but how to use it might be a little difficult as an other-hand button, when you’re already hovering constantly over a jump and shield button. My thoughts were mostly on using a stick w/ a button embedded on a stick, similar to this one, but maybe there’s a lot better than this one.
Essentially, yeah, but it’d be on the same hand as the stick, instead of requiring a constant access button on a hand already requiring 2 constant accesses to already (jump and shield). My thought behind it was that it’d free up the hand better. I dunno.
If you can’t be bothered to read the thread before posting, why post at all? Do you really like the idea of hearing yourself talk? Congratulation on spewing seven lines of ignorance.
Pressure sensitive shields are already in.
Pressure sensitive jump buttons? Now you’re really showing your ignorance. The Y button isn’t pressure sensitive, and left analog stick can already be controlled part way and full way.
-c stick control is already in.
-Your opinions on the cost and whether people would use it are of no concern to me, since people are already using it, and already buying it.
-If you’d rather use a GC pad, well good for you. Here’s a cookie kid. There’s a been a lot more people asking for a way to use a stick for Smash than there have people people giving a damn what you use.
I know (at least I think. I’ll admit I skimmed some…) that this was meant for the schmuck above me, but it sounds like you might have both a brain AND smash knowledge, which is damn hard to find. If you don’t mind, I really would like your input on stuff.
Agreed, we’re clear on that one.
I’m not 100% certain what point you’re trying to get across here; the UPCB and MC Cthulhu smash modes (advanced smash mode at least) takes into account both partial trigger (50% analog pull, no digital ‘click’) and full trigger (100% analog pull, with digital ‘click’) options. If anything, it sounds like this part is a major ‘pro’ for the arcade stick, since doing (and releasing) these is far far easier on a stick.
Now this is something I didn’t know, and I’d like for you to expand on this some if you would. Can you give me some examples of what difference the minor angle changes to a smash are? Are these smashes done by having the stick at say 10 degrees (ccw from positive X axis, natch) instead of 15 degrees, or is there movement of the stick after the smash command is inputted, or a combination of main analog + C stick, or what. Please clue me in on these.
I’m very impressed with what you’ve done here Toodles, I’m a competitive smash player and am interested in switching to stick. I was just wondering if, with some clever wiring you could wire the lock button to an extra set of directions allowing for one button per smash.
I would love for a smash stick. My only concern is that one needs true analog controls with the game to be able to play competitively. Has anyone gotten a clean wavedash off on a joystick? It is one of the more precise movements, and while I hate to say it, I don’t think any of the top joystick players could be able to beat an average controller player. While I really wish to see this become a true reality, with digital joysticks it really reduces our abilities in terms of what we can do. We would almost need a fully analog arcade joystick, and the implementation of it certainly wouldn’t be cheap if they do exist. I do appreciate the effort though. Just goes to show that smash isn’t still left in the dust behind Street Fighter and Mortal Kombat.
If the new Smash ends up being competitive I might buy one…