Sirlin.net: "The Anti-Progress Attitude"

Well how about this then:

I play Ryu in 3s since 06. Generally, I dislike the balance in the game. My character has a stupidly unfair time against Ken, Chun and Yun.I would like a rebalance.

Yet notice how I am completely fine with this version of the game as the* targeted demographic* for said version *wanted no changes. *3s players have felt pretty alienated as of late with SFIV and all, and this was supposed to be a game for them.

I’m not bashing Sirlin because he “sullied my game”, I’m taking issue with what he’s saying because:

a) He’s scapegoating a community to make his point which is a pretty cowardly and fucked up thing to do.
and I’ll admit:
b) Because the OP is an idiot, and decided to ask for civil discussion while constantly coming back and acting all smug and closed minded at even valid arguments. Don’t come into a thread and ask for civil discussion then ignore everything people are saying-- quoting them with smug little insults so you sound all the better.

If you like HDR, good for you. Hell, there are parts of HDR I like as well. But there’s no feasable reason a company should change a game when their targeted audience DOESN’T WANT THAT. IT doesn’t build the community, it fucking hurts it-- because you LOSE more members than you gain, and especially with the way that community is-- you would lose them permanently. And if you’re going with the argument that “Well, tell them tough shit and re balance the game because it needs it”-- what the fuck are you, their parents? Like I said, do you think the Marvel 2 crowd would have wanted a rebalance to their game when it came out on DD a year or so back? Do you think they were justified, as they were the ones who have been playing that game longer than anyone else-- and that the mechanics and match-up strategy currently populating that title’s metagame may possibly have some appeal to them-- thus making a rebalance dangerous in terms of REMOVING these strategies?

That’s the problem. No one is arguing with you that balance in games is something important. We’re arguing that you’re picking the wrong examples, and picking a fight with the wrong people for it. And you are picking a community that does NOT WANT IT. You’re expressing a problem with the concept of the product guys-- not the result. And there are plenty of Blizz employees that ENJOY 3s as it is btw. Maybe Sirlin should talk to them as well. It wasn’t a “lazy, anti progressive” thing Capcom did, they did it FOR the 3s community to show they were listening.

But if that’s so difficult for you to understand, then fine: Capcom is satan, and all the 3s people are whiny children who want a game that they’ve been playing for 10 years that they’re completely in love with to stay the same-- so they must be the whiny children OF Satan. They are a blight upon the world, and clearly their desire(Which Capcom released this product to APPEASE), is killing our community, and has ruined fighting games for everyone. I hope they die.

Am I the only one to whom this makes no sense? He said he’s happy there’s no change but then says he wasn’t advocating it. When a reviewer puts in their opinion - THEY ARE ADVOCATING IT. The amount of space you use to do so is irrelevant. (Sorry professional journalist here, this is my bag). Plus, making a new game makes ZERO business or marketing sense. No one except us old timers and nerds prefer the sprite-style of graphics. I’m generalizing but I get constantly frustrated when people say how bad these old games look, because they’re wrong and it’s besides the point of the game anyway. No, balancing isn’t the lazy way to do it, it actually takes more time than, I don’t know, nothing. Which is what they did to the game code right now. Nothing. You know what, I’m just going to make my own thread. Join me there. Won’t you?

Funny thing is that even if you somehow magically remove chun yun ken & makoto from the game, the lower half of the cast still gets owned badly by the upper half
http://wikiwiki.jp/3rd/?�����䥰����

I apologize. I didn’t mean to sound like I thought YOU said ‘stupid’. I know you didn’t, I was speaking more about the more negative members of the community, not you specifically. Your post just brought up that topic, and I was responding more to the topic rather that you. Sorry about that.

Personally, I don’t feel the newer games are shallow, but I’m willing to let bygones be bygones. To each their own.

Yes and ban everyone please. Including myself.

Sirlin’s whole point is: It’s a bad attitude to defend bad balancing for no reason.

Your point: I am fine with bad balancing because people didn’t want it.

I don’t think you read the article because your follow up points make just as little sense. You shouldn’t want your unbalanced game to stay unbalanced. I know your playing devils advocate for the 3S community at large, but don’t do that. Those people don’t need their wrong opinion repeated for them yet again because they are arguing for nostalgia and their own OP characters to remain so. People that truly love a game love it for it’s mechanics and would want to achieve the most even balance possible. You think the guys who invented baseball stopped after a couple years and said, “perfect. We’re done.” No. It took 50+ years to arrive at modern baseball and, for better or worse, a fighter is even more complex to balance. Generally all video games are, but the asymmetrical design of fighters is 10x harder. That’s what’s so cool about fighters - They are one of the most complex game systems that still rely on reaction. While games like D&D are some of the most complex NON-reaction games. Could you imagine if D&D still had the first gen ruleset? Give me a break.

Okay, honestly, you guys are making this a lot bigger than anyone intended it to be. Maybe you should just ignore all references to SF3 in Sirlin’s post and just move on. He is discrediting people who are anti-balance/anti-patching, nothing more.

Seriously, what the fuck? Are they children or something?

Actually, I would’ve just said “which game community is he talking where these people are totally against balance changes?”

And if someone said “10+ year old game communities” I would’ve went “why would you patch those? Just make a new one and balance that instead”.

Oh, they most certainly are. It might be a toy that you really enjoy, bit they’re still toys. There’s nothing wrong with that, I make toys for a living :wink:

Staying on topic, I think Sirlin is right about many people in the FGC being irrationally resistant to change, but I don’t think rebalancing 3rd strike would be a worthwhile project. It’s an older game and unlikely to gain any momentum in an era of new games with higher production quality and modern approaches to design. Bugs aside, it’s a pretty good port, and that’s all it needs to be.

Also, his board game design career is far more interesting than his fighting game design career. I don’t want to knock HDR, but it’s not remotely as innovative as Yomi.

I don’t understand why people who are in favour of balancing think they’re being talked about in an article about people against balancing.

Partisanship along game lines ahoy.

So all fighting games revolve around this? Are guitars and pianos toys also? Just want your opinion. Not saying you’re right or wrong.

[SIZE=18px]toy[/SIZE]

[COLOR=#333333][SIZE=13px][FONT=Verdana][COLOR=#333333][SIZE=13px][FONT=Verdana][toi] [[COLOR=#333333][SIZE=13px][FONT=Verdana]

[/COLOR][/FONT][/SIZE]](‘http://dictionary.reference.com/help/luna/Spell_pron_key.html’) [SIZE=13px][FONT=Verdana][COLOR=#333333]Show IPA[/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR][/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR][/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR]

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[COLOR=#7b7b7b][SIZE=13px][FONT=Verdana][COLOR=#333333][SIZE=13px][FONT=Verdana][COLOR=#333333][SIZE=13px][FONT=Verdana]1.[/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR][/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR]
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[INDENT=1][COLOR=#333333][SIZE=13px][FONT=Verdana][COLOR=#333333][SIZE=13px][FONT=Verdana]an object, often a small representation of something familiar,as an animal or person, for children or others to play with;plaything.[/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR][/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR][/INDENT]
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[COLOR=#7b7b7b][SIZE=13px][FONT=Verdana][COLOR=#333333][SIZE=13px][FONT=Verdana][COLOR=#333333][SIZE=13px][FONT=Verdana]2.[/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR][/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR][/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR][/LEFT]
[INDENT=1][COLOR=#333333][SIZE=13px][FONT=Verdana][COLOR=#333333][SIZE=13px][FONT=Verdana]a thing or matter of little or no value or importance; a trifle.[/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR][/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR][/INDENT]
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[COLOR=#7b7b7b][SIZE=13px][FONT=Verdana][COLOR=#333333][SIZE=13px][FONT=Verdana][COLOR=#333333][SIZE=13px][FONT=Verdana]3.[/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR][/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR][/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR][/LEFT]
[INDENT=1][COLOR=#333333][SIZE=13px][FONT=Verdana][COLOR=#333333][SIZE=13px][FONT=Verdana]something that serves for or as if for diversion, rather thanfor serious pratical use.[/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR][/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR][/INDENT]
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[COLOR=#7b7b7b][SIZE=13px][FONT=Verdana][COLOR=#333333][SIZE=13px][FONT=Verdana][COLOR=#333333][SIZE=13px][FONT=Verdana]4.[/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR][/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR][/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR][/LEFT]
[INDENT=1][COLOR=#333333][SIZE=13px][FONT=Verdana][COLOR=#333333][SIZE=13px][FONT=Verdana]a small article of little value but prized as a souvenir or forsome other special reason; trinket; knickknack; bauble.[/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR][/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR][/INDENT]
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[COLOR=#7b7b7b][SIZE=13px][FONT=Verdana][COLOR=#333333][SIZE=13px][FONT=Verdana][COLOR=#333333][SIZE=13px][FONT=Verdana]5.[/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR][/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR]**[/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR][/LEFT]
[INDENT=1][COLOR=#333333][SIZE=13px][FONT=Verdana][COLOR=#333333][SIZE=13px][FONT=Verdana]something diminutive, especially in comparison with likeobjects. [/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR][/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR][/INDENT]

^Don’t people play video games?

GOOD SHIT AT READING THE CONTEXT OF THE ARGUMENT BRO. YOU’VE DONE WELL.

this thread has aged well

the tone of your wording has nothing to do with context. also you do a lot of boring droning that really serves no point because you’re missing the point of the article entirely, as did most everyone else.

If we’re honest 3 pretty much covers fighting games… and games in general. Are you really comparing objects used to create art to playing a video game?

And like Ilthuain said above, there’s nothing wrong with something being a toy or a game. It doesn’t mean we’re worse people for liking them.

Edit: Arguably 2 applies as well, but them’s fighting words. People don’t like seeing things they’re serious about described as ‘trifles’.

No, actually that’s not what happened. Feel free to show me examples of what you’re talking about, though.

I would prefer to take a hands-off approach in this thread, since I don’t have all the answers. I believe Sirlin is right, to a point, but I’m also willing to accept some counter-arguments that rebalancing a game, even one that seems to need it as desperately as 3S does, isn’t “progress.” Like I told TrollThisSRK (lol), I’m grateful for those who have made valid contributions to the thread, but I don’t feel the need to respond to them. Again, I would prefer to take a hands-off approach, but I’ve been forced to correct the many misconceptions and errors people have made about the article itself that I wouldn’t have to do if these people would learn how to read. You’re one of the people I’m talking about.

Yeah, see, that’s the problem in Sirlin’s view. His argument isn’t directed at Capcom. It’s directed at those community members who embrace an “anti-progress” attitude. “Yes, it’s broken, but don’t you fucking fix it.”

He’s the one trying to defame the Third Strike community as anti-progress because they wanted an arcade perfect game. It is a lot more than just saying antipatching and antibalance is bad ever since he said we exemplify this mindset. How are we not justified in not defending our position and explaining what we asked for?

He could’ve made this point without bashing the community and saying we take a particular stance on the balance debate all because we wanted an arcade version for home.

He made the purpose of Third Strike Online Edition a lot bigger than what it is. It was never intended to be a rebalance of Third Strike, it was always suppose to be the Third Strike in the arcades and he’s saying it’s because we’re anti-progress and like bad games.

What you think my point is: I am fine with bad balancing because people didn’t want it.
WHAT MY ACTUAL POINT IS: THE TARGET AUDIENCE OF YOUR PRODUCT WANTS A DEFINITIVE PORT AND NOT A RE BALANCE AS THE CURRENT BALANCE IN SAID GAME IS SOMETHING THAT THEY NOT ONLY ACCEPT BUT ADMIRE.

I don’t think you read MY whole fucking post, because your entire argument is just reiterating the same bullshit these other guys have been saying, without addressing anything I really said. So hey, enjoy.

Oh by the way-- while Ryu in 3s is a pretty meh character imo, you do understand that the matchups among the top 6 or 7 in this game are deeply complex and are something the 3s community enjoys. And you’re definition of “Love for a game” equating the “love for perfect balance” is completely retarded. That’s YOUR definition of it. Don’t push your ideals onto other fucking people. If you truly loved being a good person, you’d accept other peoples opinions and not accuse someone of not reading something while you yourself ignores an entire post.

Good god just drop it. Unbalanced doesn’t mean unfun. That line of thought is just bad.

That’s the thing. I feel anytime 2 good players fight each other in a video game it’s not longer “a toy” anymore. It’s an art in the same respect as a martial art. If you just see the game being played by 2 random kids that are mashing on the buttons at an arcade then it’s just a toy that people are playing on. All of a sudden when Justin Wong and Daigo are playing on the sticks it all of a sudden becomes a thing where people idolize players, characters and play styles. I don’t think it becomes a toy anymore at that point.