Sirlin.net: "The Anti-Progress Attitude"

Classic Fighting Games Street Fighter III: 3rd Strike
521

I really hate the title of this thread. It has severely limited the scope of the discussion, which is primarily focused only on 3S. It’s only a small part of the argument Sirlin and WCMaxi have been talking about for years regarding fighters. And it’s another reason why the early aughts (the 2000s) were such a terrible time for the genre.

Every other competitive genre/game was backed by developers (Valve, Blizzard, etc) that actually gave enough of a shit about the quality, depth, and fun of their games, and they did so by coming out with regular patches or, at worst, regular sequels that addressed the real issues with the game. But the biggest fighting games last decades were made mainly by a dev (Capcom) that largely said “fuck that” to the genre. So, they made really fun, open-ended but really fucking broken games as the last hurrah for all of their respective series (MvC2, 3S, SFA3, CvS2). And then they went an entire decade before actually giving a shit again. An entire decade of the same incredibly fun, obviously broken games. So people kept playing these games out of necessity, which was already bad enough. But the worst, still-lasting result of the aughts was this mindset of “broken is good.” That balance and fun are mutually exclusive. That a game needs to be played for at least a year before a patch is even thought about. Meanwhile SC2, the competitive game, had its first patch less than 3 months after release. CS1.6, still going strong, had its first patch a few months.

The funny thing that people don’t even realize is that the “let the game evolve” mindset *wasn’t even there *until the aughts. SF2 had FIVE iterations, each coming about a year between each other that added features and fixed the broken shit from the previous game. The VS series, while wildly varying with the new gameplay elements added with each game, also had a near-yearly update cycle. The Alpha series had about a year cycle. Over in 3D land, Tekken had a 2-year update cycle. And of course there’s KOF <insert year here>. Not even the most popular series in the genre went with this “let the game evolve” series in the genre’s heyday, let alone any other series in any other genre when the developer actually gives a shit about it and doesn’t leave a series to die.

But even from a non-competitive standpoint, this aughts mindset was/is bad because it leads to lots of a casual/intermediate players quitting. I saw this firsthand with MvC2. Within the first 6 months, lots of people got tired of dealing with the obviously broken shit in that game and quit. Sure, the game evolved over the years, but at the expense of many people that just stopped playing. I know there are long-time members that don’t give a shit about popularity. That is, again, another shit side effect of the aughts. Back in the 90s, the genre was once a video game staple with SF2. You can’t go a couple of days without seeing some nostalgic fanservice on super-casual sites like Kotaku and Destructoid simply because it was a big part of video game cultures.

The aughts, with Capcom not giving a shit about the genre and game design moving further and further away from what made fighters fun in the first place (accessible yet deep) shifted the genre into niche. Even today, with the genre getting somewhat of its popularity back, you still see that niche mindset alive, with the most “hardcore” people parroting the merits of the latest out-of-touch doujin game that maybe a few thousand play in the entire US simply because it’s popular in Japan’s (dying) arcade scene, overlooking the fact that not many people play those games for a good damned reason. Maybe it’s me because I grew up in arcade culture and I love playing online, but I frankly don’t give a shit about a multiplayer game if I have no one to play against. And, in the case of the new-age mid-aughts doujin fighters, the reasons for that are aesthetics coupled with complex gameplay mechanics. Fighting games were popular back in the 90s (and are popular again today) because they were deep and could be played endlessly, but picking them and playing didn’t require the learning of lots of different subsystems. Games today are getting “dumbed down” because that’s how games used to be: dumb. Easy. Deep. You play it long enough, the game still remains fun, and the cream still rises to the top.

Things are never gonna go back to how they were back in the aughts. When problems are found, the devs fix them. And they don’t make games popularity-cripplingly complicated either. Deal with it. Or go play AH3. Or 3S for another ten years.

tl:dr:

  1. The title of the thread should be more about fighting game evolution instead of the 3S flamebait that it currently is
  2. The early/mid aughts fucking sucked for fighting games.
522

Comeback BS? You mean like SA2 Makoto?

523

I notice a trend in threads like this: the OP posts something to illicit discussion, rowdy folks with no points but lots of pent up anger make a scene and try really hard to derail the thread, and one or more of those same folks laments the thread having been derailed and asks for locks. Why is that?

524

Ok, what was WCMaxi saying, and did that have a lot to do with his leaving of the FGC for a few years?

BTW there’s nothing wrong with Arcana 3 outside of some overcomplicated inputs. It’s actually, and surprisingly, a good game.

525

Because it’s not an interesting discussion and it just causes grief both ways? This discussion might be really interesting offline and in person. But online? lol

Jesus christ. :looney:

526

And, with all respect, who are you, and what (real) SF games do you play competitively?

Just as a side note, I think, for the sake of justice, every time Blizzard is mentioned about supposedly good patches for Starcraft, it should be mentioned almost every Diablo II patch was stupid, and clearly developed by people who had no clue about the game. Which sucked, I will be the first to admit I was an absolute idiot for wasting years of my life with it.

527

No, see, that’s just it: it IS an interesting discussion and the vast majority of the grief is being caused by people really anxious to say “Sirlin is an idiot” and/or “didn’t Sirlin do bad thing X” where bad thing X equals something Sirlin did do taken way out of context or DIDN’T DO AT ALL but being claimed without evidence.

528

hahahah:rofl:

529

I have my own grievances with Blizzard, not the least of which is their mentality that a ToS should dictate hard, in-game rules instead of the game doing exactly that (Sirlin wrote an in-depth article on that very topic), but the point is they study the game and make decisions they feel are for the best.

Maybe Blizzard patches too much, or maybe they patch where they shouldn’t, or maybe they should totally fix in-game problems instead of having a vaguely-worded ToS allow them to suspend/ban players for “exploiting.” But whatever missteps Blizzard makes, the mentality is not inherently wrong; study the game post release and make adjustments if necessary.

Sirlin wanted and strongly recommended adjustments to HD Remix Akuma. Capcom shot him down. Japanese players liked HD Remix. Capcom didn’t give it a Japanese release. The animation is kinda wonky. That… that one I’ll give you.

Bleh, getting rambly now.

530

These topics always turn into people bashing hdr. These people also do not play st or any version of it
They bash hdr not becuase they played it and hated it, but because guys like dsp bash the game. They think if they bash hdr it makes them as legit as a tourney player. If you actually played hdr you would see his changes did not effect how the game is played. You can go in there and use your same strats and win. So zangief and t hawk have easier command throws, eh you were probably using that ryu/ken fireball fireball fireball uppercut corner trap anyways. If you don’t know what i am talking about then really shut up about how the dude ruined hdr

He really didn’t. I have played sf2 for 20 years brah, hdr is not the shitty version. It is the version people online bash to come off looking like they know something, when they don’t know shit

Seriously it isn’t like there is some major balance fucks. Third strike is what it is after 12 years. Kind of wish this was a collection addition so that we could really see if 2i sean and ibuki were as good as we think.

Anyways i am not shitting on third strike. None of the st/hdr people are shitting on third strike besides on the obvious balance problems

531

Maybe I’m just not looking hard enough but I don’t see people calling SEGA anti-progress for releasing all their old games for new consoles “Sonic’s Ultimate Genesis Collection”. I don’t anyone going “I wish they gave Shinobi more health, that game is unbalanced” or “I wish Axel’s Grand Upper did less damage so it because it’s the best dashing f,f+Attack in the game or others were better”.

I see Konami re-releasing “Zone of the Enders” and “Metal Gear Solid 1 2 3 and PW” for the PS3/360. Other than making aesthetic changes like frame rate and HD, I don’t think they’ve said “oh we’re rebalancing the boss fights and the AI”.

So please, explain to me why 3rd Strike Online Edition is suppose to be more than a re-release of arcade 3rd Strike and why Sirlin and his army are calling the people who wanted a re-release of 3rd Strike idiots and anti-progress?

His whole article is based on a quote he misinterpreted and how, in his opinion, that a re-release should be rebalanced.

If you think 3rd Strike Online Edition was suppose to be more than a re-release, you got the wrong idea. This is pretty much like Sony releasing old PS1 games and Sega releasing old Genesis games with online play on PSN like Golden Axe and Streets of Rage 2 on PSN. They do not contain changes to the gameplay, it’s the old game for new consoles. Why are we terrible people for wanting exactly that?

532

I’d be all for a rebalance if this was 2000. Nowadays, I wouldn’t trust one of Capcom’s random shovelware developers to know what to do with the game. “Uh, Yun and Chun do less damage, and Sean and Twelve do more damage. BIZZAM, perfect balance, twelve years in the making!”

533

Funny thing is, it isn’t this way in Japanese tournaments. Not today at least.

534

I’m just a guy on the forums. No one in particular, not that it should matter. I said that simply to illustrate that FA is not quite as universally disliked as some people claim.

As for what games I play, i play 3s, AE, and both marvel 2 and 3 competitively. Why does that matter?

Why did you put ‘real’ in parenthesis? Are you implying that SF4 is not a “real” SF? If so, how come? I’m curious as to your reasoning.

535

Please do this rehash has been done to death.
At least it looks like people would be interested in a fourth release of the 3s series,lets all hate one another over that.

536

I think its funny when people compare the balance of 3s to SF4 since there is a new version of SF4 every year. Yes, there are lots of chuns and yuns from 2006 -2008. It was also 7 years old at that point and most of the US players in the top 8 didn’t really care much about 3s. Wong, Ortiz, etc never really like 3s anyway, of course they are just going to pick the best character and kick the shit out of everyone, truth be told, they could do that with most of the cast if they really cared.

Does anyone really think that if Evo 2014 had vanilla SF4 that the top 8 wouldn’t be Sagat/Akuma/Ryu? Or if Evo 2017 had AE it wouldn’t just be Yun/Fei?

If you don’t like 3s for parries or whatever fine, but comparing the balance to a 10+ year old game to that of one that’s < 1 year old doesn’t make any sense to me.

537

WOW, PERFECT.

Mr. X is right. Sirlin, you’re great, but this random poster just put you in your place. Get off your high horse and remember games are GAMES first, no matter what type of righteous fighting spirit you believe you have.

538

Well, people can already play those games in emulators, so there is certainly no real merit in just wanting a port of it, alone. The main difference is the online part: 3rd Strike sucks in Supercade and GGPO. Current generation consoles have enough resources to run GGPO’s game copies and those are also much “softer” as they can tell what needs to be save and what does not, so, if you are a 3rd Strike player, there is no question about it: 3SOE will be the best way of playing it online, by far.

The idea of rebalancing games is debatable. It is fine, actually, if either the game is mostly dead in arcades (A2/3 by now, for instance). Else, they should release a new version, or the community will be split, and this is very important for already small communities, all of them trying to step out of the shadow of the current-gen POS games to show their value. HDR is a very particular example, and it is unfair to attack Sirlin for it, as he was not responsible for everything and did not have half the budget 3SOE received.

539

Wow, 3S really has some of the most die hard fans I’ve ever seen. I’m not even sure how exactly people are defending the balance of this game.

Some of you guys need to face reality.

540

It’s very typical for Capcom to be in this situation.

On one hand, 3S is an old entry in a franchise, and practically inactive.

On another hand, Capcom wants to make an effort to spread it around and widen the fanbase with newer (and more casual) players, BUT they know that if they force a rebalance to even out the playing field, people will be just as sour as with SF4.

So, they’re stuck in a tough spot. They have to keep it pure, or else it’s not the game people remember, but if they want to make more money and widen the fanbase, they have to change it.

While all the new content and such is definitely nice, it doesn’t do much to bring in new players. Capcom put themselves in this quandary, however, by standing on the fence and trying to please everyone. While that’s a noble (and moneymaking) goal, it’s also virtually impossible, so they’ve got to make a choice.

Personally, I think the game is great as is, and it would make little sense to give a practically dead game an update when it will most likely not have a second coming either way. To me, the re-release is better as a nice gesture to the old guard.

Still, if this argument were taking place while the game was still current (not just new, mind you, but current), then this would be a whole different ballgame.