Single Elimination Tournies

I think it’s rediculous to credit the skill of the Japanese on their single elimination tourney format.

How about they just simply put more time and effort into being good?

Or, there’s a bigger concentration of good players in small areas?

I think of a single elim. tourney like a flip of a coin or maybe a roll of dice if it’s a better person. I may be able to beat person A roughly 1 of 20 times on average. In a single elimation tourney if that 1/20 win comes in the first match, then that’s it. In double elim, if that 1/20 comes in the first match it means nothing because the better player still has plenty of room to come back.

The change character argument is really less of a pro-single elim. tourny argument and more of a players shouldn’t be allowed to change characters argument.

I do think things would be more interesting if tournies remained double elim. but players could no longer change characters.

I hope I made sense, I’m hungry…

How about this: Single elimination, best 3 out of 5, or double elimination, only one match? No switching characters throught whole tourney?

As someone who’s been running tournaments for a long time, and now does so professionally for Major League Gaming, I’d like to say that the topic creator is completely wrong.

Your Argument:
The Japanese are better than Americans overall in fighting games. The Japanese use single elimination tournaments, whereas American’s use double elim. So therefore, single elimination will make you a better fighting game player.

My Response:
The Japanese are better than Americans overall in fighing games. The Japanese also like video games about dating and sex. Therefore, having an interest in dating/sex video games will make you a better fighting game player.

Your arugment doesn’t logically follow. There’s probably 1000 contributing factors to the Japanese tending to dominate the competitive field of fighting games. Using their superiority at fighting games as proof that single elimination is better is ridiculous. They aren’t necessarily related. The Japanese are probably better because their culture makes them more likely to play fighting games than American culture is and so there are more players in a smaller space all competing constantly. American fighting games communities are smaller and more spread out… sorta like Americans and shooting games.

… that’s a FAR more likely explanation…

As for single elim itself, it doesn’t really do a fair job at measuring overall rankings. If two strong players happen to be seeded near each other for some reason then one of the two of them will probably be eliminated earlier than they really should in comparison to the overall rankings. Other, weaker players might have an easier bracket and advance entirely too far considering their skill. Even with Round Robin or previous tournament results used for seeding, this sort of thing can happen.

Not to mention the fact that certain characters have bad matchups, and certain players have bad matchups as well. You may run into a character/player who’s style perfectly destroy yours by some random twist of the game. In single elimination, if that happened to be your first round match, then you would be eliminated, with no opportunity to learn from your match or battle back into a solid final rank. Double elimination means that all those other guys who had easier early round brackets or who happened to have a style/character who stomped on their early-round opponents will actually have to win more than a fluke/good matchup once or twice to finish high. Essentially, double elim reduces the effect of character matchups and playing styles. It gives you more accurate final results, if not perfect ones.

And on the contrary to the topic starter’s point about character usage, single elimination tournaments actually reduces the variety of tournament characters played. People are more likely to go with their “safe” top tier characters than try their other, developing characters. With less room for error, no one wants to exit early cause they wanted to test their low tiers.

That too, means that double elimination allows for better overall character development. Players actually TEST those questionable characters in the most intense tournament competitions and really get to see if those new tricks and tactics they’ve been developing are optimal strategies. Otherwise they’ll focus on the same old, tried and true methods to grind out victories and eek out one more place up the rankings.

In short, you’re dead wrong.

EDIT: Where the frick is you poll option for “I wouldn’t play in a single elim tournament (because they suck)” cause right now there’s no response that I’m willing to use.

Here’s my two cents. Everything should be run swiss style like chess tournaments. 10 years ago people were bitching we can’t do it cause no has owns 20 arcade machines but now we can do it with counsels.

single elimination allows for the player to get better witht the specific character tho, i know thats true. because u have to adapt alot quicker to that indivual player not the character they r using.

maybe if they made it best out of 5 rounds but make it single elim.

Can’t you also get better with a character by picking the same character all the time regardless of the format?

first sbo finals = izu

what fmj said my yun is better because no matter what i almost always pick him 99% of the time i’m playing yun if i’m not i’m just messing around format has nothing to do with you getting better with that character its just you playing with it, if you want it to be like that just make it single character selection

the more games you play and win is what proves you have better skill i play bacardi j3d1 all the time i can beat him, if i beat him first game does that mean i’m better then him? hell no because i know if we played 20 more matches it’d be him like 15 -5 if he was having a bad day, but hey i got lucky the first match now hes out, thats what single elim is

US is too large for single elimination format, perhaps you meant single character selection.

but no one does that and wins. they either go all the way with one character then change to the next to counter if they lose.

only time i see someone stay with the same character (AND WIN) through the whole tourny is if they use top tier in america. thats why america is top tier land. because of all the exposure to ken, chun and yun it’s easier to pick up those characters because its documented what to do with them to win. ppl have ideas and examples to put there characters against to improve those characters. no others because no other player has those characters at that level. why learn to fight chun with remy when even if u beat the chun u gotta face… u guessed it, ken. oh NO’S its grand finals now they switched to yun.

no diss to anyone or disrespect to any players who disagree. its just there is no connection to the players using the characters now, its all business and it looks like players r motivated by money and thats it.

they should penalize a player and limit there character use to one if they allow double elimination, when u switch characters and win your winning more based on the first brand new gimmick or trick that wasnt seen before, and thats pretty much it.

switching characters is a cop out, u blame the character instead of becoming better yourself when u lose.

it only makes players thin out allowing only the players who like using top tier to to tourny play.

this could be fixed by having single elimination or removing character switching between sets.

this is EXACTLY what i meant thanx for posting!!! much respect for your yang.

Saying a nation sucks at fighting games or w/e becaues they use top-tier is just dumb. When a nation goes to war, does it use bats and chains because it wants to test out alternate “low-tier” weapons? No. It needs and wants to win. Same thing with a tournament. If you want to get good with a low-tier, practice him all the time in casual, THEN bring him to a tourney. Don’t force stupid shit on people because you have a “dream”.

you know, the breakdown tourny(eastern sbo qualifiers) will be single character selection, you should come out, it ll be fun

EDIT- after this whole US regional qualifier thing passes, maybe the single character selection rule will be more of a trend.

It’s funny. He didn’t even mean single character selection. Only when ppl told him he was wrong did he switch it around. “Oh yeah that’s what I meant!” Meh, w/e. Single elimination is dumb, especially if you’re playing on foreign controls.

geese is always right and i’m a big smelly dumb head


kofiend, when r the qualifiers?

febuary 20
http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80255

God you’re dense. RULES REGARDING CHARACTER SELECTION ARE INDEPENDANT OF WHETHER IT’S SINGLE OR DOUBLE ELIM!!! Why is this so hard for you to understand? Do you even fucking READ what anybody is saying? 'cause you’re just recycling the same generalized bullshit.

That’s 'cause we have less players and very few tournies. It’s EXTREMELY difficult to win with hard characters if there’s hardly any local competition 'cause you can’t learn all your matchups.

Tourney format has little to do with this. If anything, single elim can make this even harder because you don’t have enough time to learn a matchup during the tourney. You travel for hours to a neighboring state or fly across the country, then have to play a matchup you’ve never experienced before and go out in no time. That’s just a waste of money and odds are you’ve learned hardly anything.

You learn more from double elim 'cause you play more games. If it’s one game, single elim, I’m not going to learn much about a matchup if I lose badly.

You’re an idiot.

Japanese tournaments are played without money. Maybe that’s why they’re so good? This is retarded, Japan is better because they have more players in a smaller area than we do, and they also actually like playing the games. We only cared about SF2 through SSF2 (which killed the scene in the US) and had enough left over to be good at ST, and then MvC2. The US has never truly given a damn about anything else. We’d rather play FPS games. I can point to a myriad of unrelated reasons and claim its what makes the Japanese good. How about, because they speak Japanese? Or we can say it’s because they eat raw fish sometimes. Or maybe its that they use Japanese sticks (this is actually a legit reason, it makes their execution better). They’re definitely not better because of single elim, thats for sure.

i would love to play u ziggy. u have alot u can teach me since i’m an idiot.

How 'bout you take a debate class instead and learn to make a real argument.

damn my learning disabilty…