Single Elimination Tournies

Current Fighting Games Fighting Game Discussion
1

i think the fighting scene would actually recover if they adopted single elimination as a tournament standard.

if your just going to pick chun or ken as your back up u might as well just come out and learn with your best.

example : rob used to use elena, chun, ryu as his tourney characters. now that its single elimination he decides to learn chun. after years of some wins and losses he’ll pick a low tier because he’s bored and wants to learn something new. from the experiences of learning the ins and outs of his first “only” character he was able to apply them to the new. 2 things happened…

1 since he started from new, one of the first things he has to find out about the character were some changes he had in comparison to the chun that he tourney played with for so long. the mental aspect of winning now has to be shot through every pixel of that character so u know where the “bread and butters” are at, and what u do for anti airs, and so on and so on… u really finally see the character as a tool to fight with, not just its faults.

2 other players will find out what u know from u sharing it with them when u fight against them. the fights r a lot more meaningful because its best of of 3, 99 second rounds and u either win or lose.

if there were more single elimination tourneys ppl would be forced to invest there money on a cash cow (top tier) but through practice and others learning from your playing and mastering of your characters match ups, it does 3 things.

1 makes the character of another better by learning from your version of it.

2 makes the ppl in your area better because your spreading new information to others.

3 balances the playing field because through learning from others they r in retrospect learning from u. sure u r exposing your tricks but your making new ones as they figure out the old. its like chess. u take out your bishops or knights out too early lots of good enough players know how to get them. while those same ppl throwing out there bishops or knights r setting a trap and baiting u.

this double elimination system that the american fighting game uppers adopted has deluded the deepness of individual characters in a game.

instead of winning by unbiased skill u win by change of character. this to me i didn’t think much of it until i started to witness japanese tourneys especially the A3 acho tourneys.

they allowed in-finites, to corner specific cross ups, to anything. it is a no hold bar game format because it was single elimination 3 on 3 teams.

yet this game is so excellent with the mixed bag of characters used thought out it. because each player using there character got better not by switching between characters but studying under that one method of playing. they stretched the capabilities of the characters they chose to make them equals or better than there adversaries.

i think we as the americans who go to arcades for casual/or travel to far off corners of the earth for a match, to many others that will be downloading on there computers. we should really look at using single elimination and the mind set of “Now or Never”. because in the path things are going they can only lead to one road.

american fighting game scene = extreme dodge ball
japanese fighting game scene = NFL, NBA

and for games that ppl might bring up with horrible tiers that is only brought on by the lack of interest in that specific character. the tiers here r sooo screwed up in america because instead of really learning the game u just see players who know match ups. they never have to dig deeper to get that counter for that trap- why should they if they got another shot and can switch characters.

2

No offense, but…I think this idea is whack.

Single elim makes the scene more skilled? wtf are you basing this on? Have you even PLAYED in a single elim tourney?

Sorry, but that’s bullshit. If anything, single elim would be MORE rewarding to character selection than skill because it’s a one-time-thing. Tricks, gimmicks, and lone mistakes can and will cost you the match and the tournament.

Say it’s tied at 1-1 in a best of 3 games match and I lost game 2. Winner keeps character so I can now choose someone my opponent knows nothing about. He doesn’t have enough time to adapt within the span of a single game, but if it’s double elim he can learn from this, make his way through losers, and force me to beat him as a player. If it’s single elim, it’s over and I’ve won just by preying on my opponent’s ignorance, not by out-playing him on an equal footing.

Pay any attention to Japanese tournies and you’ll notice they VERY rarely produce consistent winners. While making it best of 3/5/7 games generally works out with single elim, the format is still less rewarding of adaptation. Plus, some characters suck ass in single elim 'cause you need to learn your opponent’s habits in order to play them well.

3

you’re going have to adapt to any situation or opponent.

single elimination would make you more balance to any situation.

no second chances.

4

yea but if its single elimination and u put enough time and effort into your ryu or necro u could win because u would have faced enough ken’s, chun and yun to know whats up.

look at japanese matches for 3S u still see the same players faces placing high in tourny play because of there skill not because they were outmatched by tiers.

any players that magically get first place is not because they got lucky but because they out played whoever they faced. u stick with a character long enough i think it’ll allow for a more diverse tourny of characters and players because its your best vs my best and that’s it.

and its not pulling out any randomness from a character no one has seen before because u used that same character for the entire tourny.

(thinks of izu, but then again if he was so lucky anyone could win with makoto)

look at single elimination tournies if the player had to use one character through out the tourny.

it’ll make the players using whatever character they choose see them through every match up not just there good ones or bad ones. thats why america is behind japan when it comes to non top tier characters because ppl know ken, yun, chun because those r the fall ball characters. why not just make the player commit to one that way its up to the player’s skill to make up for any weaknesses in matches that they come across.

sure there might be alot of ken, chun, and yun at first but i’m pretty sure thats how it was when the game came out in japan the first year. i bet it was full of chun and ken. but because of how they set up there tournies ppl discovered how to beat them and that’s what lead to character diversity and increased skill.

5

No offense, but I have a hard time following what you’re trying to say. I’m guessing english is a second language for you…you really need to work on it a bit before trying to post something like this.

Its always going to be more skilled the more games you give people. In single elim and shorter sets, a lot of upsets occur and weaker players have a pretty good chance of advancing compared to usual. In shorter sets and single elim, tricks and luck play a huge factor. Heck, if you only played one match of MvC2 or Cvs2, its highly unlikely that Justin or Daigo or anyone else would advance far every year, or win it all like Justin does. 1 game just isn’t enough…and single elim just isn’t enough. In single elim, if you face the best player early and you’re the second best player, you’re already out…it becomes more a case of brackets than skill coming out in the end. In the same scenario in double elim, you can fight your way out of losers and get another chance, or maybe even play another player if someone else beat ‘the best’.

6

I don’t know if single elim tournaments are the answer, but I agree that american players are given too many second chances.

7

single elim just means tricks that normally don’t work or just plain luck can get give you a win, the only good thing i can think about is that you don’t get a chance to counter character

8

i suck at speaking i usually communicate with grunts and nods, sometimes clicks.

the best will still be the best. if the second best player loses to the best player wouldnt that be good? if he won against the best wouldnt that be an upset?

more ppl would come out for single elimination, especially ppl not using the holy trinity of 3S.

why does america take 2 trys to figure out who’s the best? if your really that great put it on the line on one match u still have your skill backing u up. if u get randomed out then u fucked up and u’ll learn from your mistake.

look at spell master j and how he lost to izu

next year he beats him, not because izu got weaker but because he as a player got better. u can see this if u run the matches back to back.

9

If you are talking about the SBO2 finals, that is J playing Makoto not Izu.

I think people who worry about random upsets are crazy. The upsets I always hear about from japanese tournaments are never about makotos getting lucky…it’s always something like a hugo or a Q killing off entire top-tier teams. Somehow I doubt they won by getting lucky or using dirty tricks. Maybe in 1 game, but 3 times in a row? Sounds like skill to me.

10

If it was best of X games, sure. If it’s single elim, best of one game, then you’re much more likely to win based on your opponent’s ignorance or simple luck. Yes, single elim can make for better variety in character selection, but it’s essentially fake.

See, this is where your argument makes no sense. What you just said is MORE likely to happen in double elim because the better player has more time to learn his opponent’s habits.

You’re pretty naive, no offense. You’re just romanticizing tournament play and not accepting the fact that randomness and luck play a noticable factor in fighting games. The more games that are played, the less of an impact such factors create.

But one game, single elim lets you get away with NOT using your best and winning via gimmicks. Like I said, I can prey on your ignorance towards a character or strat and win without out-playing you as a player.

This is assuming the rules force you to stick with a character. All you’ve mentioned is single elim without elaborating on anything else. How do you expect to make a convincing argument when I can’t even understand what you’re trying to say?

No, we’re behind Japan because we just don’t have enough players or tournaments. People are less likely to experiment when tournaments are few and far between and there aren’t enough local players to get much-needed experience in all your matchups.

Once again, this rule is totally independant of whether or not it’s double or single elim. You need to be more coherent 'cause you’re just coming off as a Japanese fanboy.

11

Daigo lost to some random French player at Absolution 'cause it was one game, single elim. And you need to work on reading comprehension. If the 2nd best player lost to the best in the grand finals, all is well. If he lost to him in the 2nd or 3rd round due to bad seeding, the results are an inaccurate gauge of skill level.

Prove it.

And if the tourney wasn’t one game, single elim, he could’ve done so in the span of one day, not a whole fucking year.

12

i don’t think luck really plays a factor (dont’ play 3s tho)

but yea

gimmicks would be alot stronger and this may be far off but if everything revolves around stupid tricks do’nt you think people may hold out on reaveling tricks moreso than before since it gives you a big edge?

double is better overall.

but single is faster and that’s more economic to the people running the tourneys i’d think
.

13

Is there an offical constitution on SF tourneys that exists? Who’s decides if single elim is enough or double elim. You say that Justin or Daigo wont get far if its single elim. I just cant swallow that, if they play like they have been playing in the past then of course they will advance far. Also that weaker player excuse is a cop out IMO. Single elim helps weaker players? What does that mean? Single elim or Double elim it doesn’t matter, the player who out played the other will win. Even so if its the so called “weaker” player. It seems a lot of you are scared of getting defeated by a player who isn’t well known. If

I just don’t understand this comment. Please explain to me these “tricks”? Are they cross ups? Anti Airs? low foward SAIII? If you mean getting hit my stuff that you normally don’t then isn’t that the players fault? Whenever I ask this question it seems that no one doesn’t step up. Can someone PLEASE explain to me the luck factor in SF? If you stood up and got hit by a low foward SAIII with ken are you gonna say that your opponent was lucky? I hope not. Its your damn fault for standing up and getting hit. There is no “RANDOM” factor in SF. You press buttons you get actions. Does the computer randomly parries and supers for you? No it doesn’t it.

peace

Sav

14

If you need to change the tournament around to force players to play the way you want, there’s no point in having a tournament. You should be able to play a 50 set with someone if you feel like it without some random person giving their opinion on your playstyle, which is more the issue here.

I could see if the request to change the format was based on some serious study of tournaments and game stats. But the entire argument is based on false pretences.

  1. The way good players play is cheap - FALSE
  2. If i change the format, people will be forced to play the way i want them to - Again False, but funny too.

Local tournies are great places to run single elim, get some morale going, get people to the big tournaments. But running a large tournament on single elim is defeating the purpose, I believe even some of the japanese vids we’re seeing are 2/3 games now. We’re not wrong about everything over here in the states.

And i’m saying this as a makoto player!

15

i’m not a fanboy by any means we all know they r better. i’m just trying to point out why they r better. if we know why they r better then we can take that and apply it to what we do here.

if its single elimination and u lose because the other player got lucky then u weren’t that good to begin with in the first place. (this is the truth)

your still seeing the game from the vantage of the characters u pick. let me remind u that in single elimination tournies u dont switch characters from fight to fight u stay with the same character throughout the whole tourny.

so in the finals u might see a bunch of kens, chuns, and yuns but what happens if u see a dudley or ryu there? they r at the highest level of playing using there limitations and expanding there game. they r there not because of tiers but based on skill. if more players see these players then they’ll learn from there mistakes and become better.

u need to allow the ken or yun to lose by one game because they r so good already why prolong the evitable with extra matches if the same top players r using the same top tier characters?

single elimination gives the player who knows there character more than there opponent the edge.

double elimination just gives the player with the better match up knowledge the edge.

this double elimination system worked well for super turbo but even in that game the impossible matches r being opened up and exposed for not being that bad because of single elimination. 3S is alot more loose when it comes to match ups and a simple change of the super is enough for most characters to fight in there bad match ups.

single elimination makes players commit to there character of choice and if they did choose ken they would have to be pretty special to stand out from the rest of the ken pack.

16

i’ve never participated in a fighting game tournament, so my opinion might not be too valid. the only videogame tournaments i’ve participated in were DDR/IIDX tournaments a long time ago, which went through so many different standards that you pretty much had to be ready for everything.

i don’t think single elims will change the skill level at all. i think when people play at a tournament-level, no one wants to lose (unless they sandbagged). no one looks at the loss as some kind of cop out.
maybe they’ll be more skilled at winning single elims because of the experience, but i don’t think it is proof that they would be more skilled at the game.

we can’t compare fighting games to NBA, NFL style playoff system because of the physical and economical limitations. a double elim NFL playoff system would kill all the players and extend the season far too long. the NBA imposes best of 7 in first round nowadays because they want to make more money, and double elimination would also suffer the same problems as the NFL… physical toll and season extension.

no matter what, there’s always going to be controversy over who is more skilled. in olympic basketball, spain finished 5-0 and lost their first round in the playoffs against the USA, and they were angry. this tournament used a round robin qualifier, then set them up in single elim… which is also a system used a lot in soccer.

i don’t think there’s anything wrong with asking for single elim tournaments, but they are certainly not the cause for a lack of skill level.

17

And you’re doing a poor job of it.

Making tournies one game, single elim isn’t going to do jack.

DAIGO LOSES TO A WEAKER PLAYER AT ABSOLUTION 2004!!! What part of that sentance do you not understand?

I’ve beaten and come close to beating players who I KNOW are better than me in tournaments. Stop making stupid generalizations.

Rules regarding character selection are NOT tied to the tournament format. This is why you look like a fanboy: you just assume single elim = Japanese tournament format = more skilled player base. Yet you’ve failed to give any factual basis for this assumption.

A HUGO TOOK THIRD AT ECC LAST YEAR!!! Shit, you can only talk about 3rd Strike to begin with. You seem to lack either the knowledge to make an argument or the ability to communicate that knowledge.

18

hugo didnt take 3rd… henry switched to chun

there should be character specific structure to the tournaments then, i hate how ppl here take everything subpar out and remove everything human and interesting out of competition and only leave the known best. this way only narrows the game knowledge and competition level. single elimination will bring out all the knowledge of any character that places first and spread that knowledge to others to improve.

instead of later learning the bottom mid and mid tier america has just put importance on top tier because thats what everyone believes whats best so blindly. if ppl put enough time into other characters and the tournies allowed for it by not having your opponent switch characters to accomplish a win then everyone would become so much better.

when its one game and your done, u fight to play on with a character u have trust in and any counter match ups u have u will hopefully learn from when u lose. this is how a character base knowledge is spread and expanded on. double elimination only spreads knowledge of top tier but very slowly… thats why america is behind japan…

if it was single elim then u would see all the chun tricks out up front first and the player would need to outplay the opponent himself now not his character to get the win.

19

Don’t Japanese tournaments do only single elimination matches? Considering they are the best at almost any fighting game, would you not believe that single elmination holds water as being a good method to process tournies?

I think it would be better since it will shorten the time it takes to do tournies, but it sucks ass for anyone who drives 400 miles to lose in the first round. Obviously, cities arent gonna gather together.

If you want to hold single elim tournies, there better be some free practice time before the tourney starts. There will be some serious ass sandbagging, but it’d give people the chance to play each other before the real shit starts. Also, if single elims are held, they should be held more frequently and geared more towards the local audience, not the entire region, or even state for that matter.

I also heard that Japanese tournaments only allowed you to use one character through the whole tournament. I am not sure about how this would work out in America. Honestly, I think it would just be a bunch of Ken’s and Chun-Li’s in 3S, and Cammy, Blanka, and Sagat in CvS2. But this also elminates counter selecting. Who knows, really.

20

They are better because they can beat the player beyond whatever tricks they can use to hide their weaknesses. So the answer is to increase the # of games, not decrease, i believe this is on the way with people leaning toward RR/swiss style tournaments with consoles to give people more games.

You can’t claim to know about SF IMO and then say that you can determine the best player in 1 game, especially when you’ve never seen that player before. And especially when practially every game now has some built in tactic that is designed to help players who are weaker in SF overall win some matches.

If you say that luck isn’t a factor, lets play the same bet in ANY capcom game, if i win 1/100 i win the set, $100, any takers??? Cmon there’s no luck in SF!!! If someone is so much better i should never win until they get tired of playing… right?

Just to put some numbers behind this, lets say that 10% of the time, luck wins a match. Remember that watson even has a 10% luck buffer from the empire in ST, arguably the most non-luck based game of the recent SFs, so i think 10% is more than fair. EDIT: it was actually 9% but F that math.

If the best player enters a 32 man 1/1 single tourney, lets calculate his luck factor

5 x 10% = 50% chance of not winning the tournament due to luck.

now what about 2/3 single

winning a single 2/3 set = winning games 1/2, 2/3, or 1/3 = (0.10.11)(10.10.1)(0.110.1) = 0.03 = 3% and we didn’t even calculate dbl elim yet (and i wont).

5 x (3%) = 15% chance of not winning due to luck.

  1. There is luck in SF
  2. Luck diminishes a lot based on the # of games played
  3. We don’t play SF every day of our lives against every possible type of opponent.
  4. Ppl spend a lot to go to these tournies a few times a year where you want us to create a 50%+ chance of the best player not winning.
    =
    dbl elim 2/3 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> single 1/1