Shoryureppa! The Ken Thread

Classic Fighting Games SSF2T: HD Remix
1001

17 frames of hit stun on a light attack right? cr.lk from 1st hit frame to last recovery is like < 10 frames.

Even with frame skipping, you should have plenty of time to do it.

Here’s an even better way to test, someone with a frame capture could capture the “advantage” ken has after cr.lk chain cr.lk. Super hits on the first frame, technically second if you count super flash.

If ken has +frames after cr.lk chain cr.lk, then yes he can link it. Dunno what T3 average would be though. Unless you’re saying that characters have a guaranteed throw on ken, if he doesn’t renda the second cr.lk. which doesn’t sound correct at all.

1002

i don’t mean to be confrontational, but i’m going to be blunt.

no matter how many times you try to link short short super, it will never combo consistantly. you need a renda after the second short. if you’ve tried it before then you’d understand this without question. i just got out of training mode and out of like 50 attempts to link the super on hawk maybe 1 or 2 actually worked (i could have accidentally kara’d those, who knows). if it were an easy 5-frame link then EVERYONE would be doing it with retarded consistancy.

i don’t know about the numbers you have but it just doesn’t work that way. after many attempts in training mode you may get 1 or 2, but 2/50 aren’t odds i’d want to fuck with in a real game. it’s better to just learn it the right way.

1003

11 frames of hitstun for a light attack. IDK where you’re getting 17 frames from Coth. While you’re technically correct that Ken’s Super should combo everytime after a cr Short x2 without cancelling, for some reason it doesn’t work, as moocus proved. IDK what this reason is, but the actual frame advantage after a cr Short is about 3 frames, not 5:

Data from Akiba:
Crouch Short: 4 4 5 = 13
-hits on the 5th frame, leaving 8 frames of recovery. 8 minus hitstun 11 = 3 frame advantage.

If you compare that to the cr Strong, which can be comboed into Super without cancelling everytime, and is actually pretty easy to execute:
Crouch Strong: 4 4 6 = 14
-also hits on the 5th frame, leaving 9 frames of recovery. However causes 16 frames of hitstun, 9 minus hitstun 16 = 5 frame advantage.

Not much difference between 3 frames or 5 frames of advantage, but in the game the difference is night and day. Comboing a Super after cr Short without cancelling is almost impossible, but comboing after a cr Strong is pretty easy. IDK why this is.

I’m more interested in finding out if SweetJV had a point about light attacks cancelling into each other. I always thought that rapid fire light attacks would combo because of their fast recovery, I always thought that you had to press the button right after the recovery ended. But if the cr Short only gives a 3 frame advantage, that’s not enough to startup the next cr Short in time to combo (it has a 4 frame startup and hits on the 5th).

So maybe light attacks do get cancelled into another light attack if they hit. This would explain why they combo. So after the cr Short hits on the 5th frame, the 8 frames of recovery can be cancelled into another cr Short…right? It’s all very complicated, but if this is the way it works, I think I just learned something new.

1004

Ok no reason to be a shithead. It felt like it might work. Good to know there’s no reason to post thoughts or conjectures here.

1005

Could be super flash eating those frames or something

1006

i wasn’t trying to be a shithead, i just don’t want anyone learning how to do things the wrong way. the longer misinformation floats around like that, the more people start learning things improperly and getting confused.

those numbers are weird though, i mean on paper you SHOULD be able to do it with relative ease, but for some reason it just doesn’t work that way.

i’m sorry for coming off like a douche, i didn’t mean to. i’m even thinking about making a video on exactly how to do short short super since this seems to stump a lot of new learners.

1007

i can get the renda cancel like 10%, but i don’t know how i’d even begin to actually confirm it. It seems far too fast for confirmation, unless im trying to chain too fast.

1008

Yeah, it might be too fast when you’re just starting out. It does help to slow your rapid fire chain down a bit. The same principle helps when you want to do cr. short, cr. short xx Dragon Punch. Just be careful against certain characters because if you slow down your rapid fire chain it does increase the risk of eating a reversal. Just a chance you take when doing that. As you get used to it though, it becomes a bit simpler to combo with a faster rapid fire chain into a DP.

1009

I have no idea where i got 17 from.

It does link pretty damn well on speed 0 though.

I guess the frame skip is that severe.

1010

I’ve just done some quick testing in AutoIT (macro software), and it appears 2x cr.short into super is indeed impossible unless you renda cancel. I wrote 2 scripts and the only difference in them is that one has the “third short”, and one doesn’t. The renda cancel works every time, the non-cancel never works.


Func rendasuper()
opt ( "SendKeyDelay" ,0)
opt ( "SendKeyDownDelay" ,16.6)
Send ("{down down}")
Sleep(16.6)
Send ("{z down}")
Sleep(16.6)
Send ("{z up}")
Sleep(240.8)
Send ("{z down}")
Sleep(16.6)
Send ("{z up}")
Sleep(16.6)
Send ("{right down}")
Sleep(16.6)
Send ("{down up}")
Sleep(16.6)
Send ("{right up}")
Sleep(16.6)
Send ("{down down}")
Sleep(16.6)
Send ("{right down}")
Sleep(16.6)
Send ("{down up}")
Sleep(16.6)
Send ("{z down}")
Sleep(16.6)
Send ("{a down}")
Sleep(16.6)
Send ("{z up}")
Send ("{a up}")
Send ("{right up}")
EndFunc



Func crshortsuper()
opt ( "SendKeyDelay" ,0)
opt ( "SendKeyDownDelay" ,16.6)
Send ("{down down}")
Sleep(16.6)
Send ("{z down}")
Sleep(16.6)
Send ("{z up}")
Sleep(240.8)
Send ("{z down}")
Sleep(16.6)
Send ("{z up}")
Sleep(16.6)
Send ("{right down}")
Sleep(16.6)
Send ("{down up}")
Sleep(16.6)
Send ("{right up}")
Sleep(16.6)
Send ("{down down}")
Sleep(16.6)
Send ("{right down}")
Sleep(16.6)
Send ("{down up}")
Sleep(16.6)
Send ("{a down}")
Sleep(16.6)
Send ("{a up}")
Send ("{right up}")
EndFunc

Don’t forget, you must complete the super motion by holding towards as your last direction (not down toward as you can usually do). The reason being is you need Ken to change state from being crouching into standing. So really you aren’t cancelling cr.shorts into a super, you are doing 2x cr.short, 1x st.short but it’s the st.short that gets cancelled so quick you don’t see or hear it. Going into a standing state basically resets the limitation of not being able to cancel chain attacks, since the last attack you did was a single stand short, and therefore not a chain combo.

That’s why it’s so much easier to do st.short, cr.short xx super rather than cr.short, cr.short xx super.

I think far and near attacks also count at state changes, for example [media=youtube]oDuF6OKjo_E#t=0m33s"[/media]. It could be that I got lucky and cancelled it correctly, but I think it works on the same principal as doing the crouching short, changing state to standing and then doing the super. Here we have 2x close jabs, a far jab and then the super.

1011

I always tend to go with this rule: When you’re talking about cr short x 2 xx anything, that the renda cancel is always assumed to be performed. BUT! Hey, new knowledge!

1012

here’s something that can really help. since hit confirming is not unique to ken’s short short super, you can practice in other ways that are crucial to ken’s offense. one way is to confirm a combo off of a jump-in or crossup. the idea is to finish the combo ONLY if you see that it’s hitting.

an example would be crossup – crouch strong – jab srk. if you see the crossup and crouch strong hit, you want to maximize your damage and make them eat an srk and knock them back to the floor. if not, you have a variety of things to work with off of the frame advantage you get from the crouch strong (walkup knee bash, walkup dp, wait and bait, etc.). i see way too many ken players get part of a combo and then try to walkup throw, or something to that effect. the idea of ticking into a throw is pre-programmed; they aren’t reacting to anything, just mindlessly going through the motions.

now if you mindlessly just follow through the motions of the combo even if they’re blocking, the srk just pushes them away from you (and to relative safety), and that’s not something you want either.

so basically, reguardless of the situation, you want to train your brain to specifically recognize when your attacks hit, when they do not, and to act accordingly. this helps a lot when you carry that experience over to confirming short short then super.

1013

I like this one, cr short x3, juice kick to hit the guy behind the head, cr short, juice kick to hit him behind the head again, they walk up dp or knee bash. gets em every time. its easy when you have huge gigantic balls.

1014

He definitely does, but this is not true for all characters. For example, Honda does not have any rapid-fire attacks, while Guile has all neutral versions of jab and short canceling into themselves. Dictator’s close standing short, on the other hand, does not cancel into itself, but it has such a small recovery and start-up that one can use it right after the previous one, until the enemy is pushed back such that he gets the far version of the move, which still has good frame advantage but not as huge as the close version.

Edit: as for Ken’s short x2 into super, one must have a relatively fast super motion execution to do it.

1015

can someone specify a little bit about that cancel into super?
i’m kinda new to both (turbo and HD) scenes.

a little update, it seems i can get the c.lk c.lk qcf qcf lk~lp to chain, but still can’t make it combo (too far?) any ideas?

1016

[media=youtube]VveKpTbG_Go[/media]

Ken’s Renda Cancel and Triple Buffer techniques

[ EDIT: sorry I was too lazy I should have said more. I agreed with moocus that the old method is the way to go. I include this video just because it also demonstrated the old method. I believe DGV used the new method for his ryu lk super. It is a lot easier to do hit confirm with the old method.

The key to the old method is to hit the forward direction (not down-forward) and LP+LK at the same time.
]

1017

i’m going to be adamant about this and say that the “old” way (according to this video) is the right and only way you should be doing this. if you can’t get the double qcf fast enough, then practice practice practice. this isn’t something you can learn in 15 minutes. it takes time and effort.

with the “new” method, you can’t properly react to anything if you’re already focused on pre-buffering. look how hard the person had to concentrate on that first attempt, i can see it in his hands. if you have to focus that hard just to execute it in training mode, you can forget about using it to confirm into super in a real match. it adds too much execution clutter that takes away from properly being able to confirm. with all those qcf buffers, you can also have fun getting accidental negative edge funky kicks.

aside from all of that, everyone needs to learn how to properly hit-confirm first before moving to short short super anyway, which is an important subject that people don’t focus on and rarely discuss.

1018

Many of you may not know this, but I am a solid N ken player and I endorse this message. the short short super should not be a fancy gimmick used just for show. it should be any serious ken players bread and butter. something that should never be dropped. the risk to reward factor to this move is what makes ken a dangerous player. it looks innocent but does great damage. if you mess up, it doesn’t put you in a position that will eliminate you. no shortcuts, just get it right.

1019

There is one easy thing in new games that many may know from Alpha games and SF3: if the enemy makes a mistake and is in range of a normal, but there is not enough time to perform the super motion for higher damage because the character would recover, you can hit him with a normal and cancel it into the super with extreme ease. This basically buys you time to perform the super. Ken can use a similar technique by kara-canceling off a single cr.short. One can (and should) also try and incorporate this into his or her Ken to be able to punish more things into super. But that is for punishing, I do not think it is humanly possible to confirm from a single cr.short.

1020

For a single cr. short, you don’t need to kara-cancel. Just the normal special/super cancel is enough (i.e. nothing you need to do differently than just cr. lk xx super). But like you said it’s not easy to confirm with just a single cr. short. Also just an additional cr. short is not ideal for punishing (say a dizzy).

For punish, an easy but ok damaging combo is to buffer qcf into low forward into qcf punch (super), which is the same as ryu’s low forward xx super.

Or if you have some distance, jump RH xx super is also very easy to do.