So the other day I accidentally found ken’s crossup mk, cr.mp, cr.hk and liked it.
I decided to actually do my homework and look at a few combos from OJ’s faq.
This is what interested me:
Kara Cancelling (KC): Kara (Japanese for empty) cancelling is when
you cancel a normal move immediately into a special or super move. The
cancel is done so quickly that you don’t even see the normal move come
out (but you can hear it). **By itself, kara canceling is really not that
useful in ST aside from one small glitch. (For several characters, you
can shorten the recovery time of a Strong or Fierce fireball by kara
cancelling a Jab or Short.) **However, kara canceling is extremely useful
when used in conjunction with renda canceling…
Could someone in the know like OJ or perhaps Blitz, explain the bolded part? Specifcally who can use it and how it works/why it works?
That’s a Vanilla ST thing. (I think Sirlin got rid of that for HDR. Can’t remember right now.) I got that section from the writeup that ShinVega did for the Vanilla ST Wiki. (You’ll note that I referenced that in the FAQ, giving credit where it’s due, of course.)
But…yeah…in Vanilla ST, certain characters like Ryu and Sagat were supposed to recover faster when using jab projectiles than when using strong or fierce projectiles, but the game actually used the normal move done before throwing the projectile to determine the recovery. So, kara cancelling is useful for making any projectile thrown recover as quickly as possible.
I think it’s still there, unless I misunderstand how Ken’s lk lk super works. My understanding is you do cr. lk, cr. lk, lk~super. This can be explained as follows: You first execute a cr. lk as normal. You then cancel the first cr. lk into another cr. lk (do a quarter circle after the second cr. lk). Do another quarter circle (this will be the second one) but be sure to end with the stick in the forward position. Now you hit lk then quickly any punch. Since you can’t cancel the second cr. lk into any special (for reasons I really can’t explain but that’s the way ST and HDR work) you don’t get a funky kick, you get a standing lk. But if you hit punch quickly enough you’ll kara cancel the standing lk into super. You have enough hit stun from the second cr. lk that kara canceling a standing lk into super will connect. Amazing! Well assuming I got this right.
Further explanation:
Due to the way ST and HDR work, you can cancel some normals into them selves or other normals. However if you cancel a normal into another, you cannot cancel that second normal into another move. For example, Ryu can combo cr. lk, fireball. However, Ryu cannot combo cr. lk, cr. lk, fireball. The second cr. lk will not cancel and so the best you can do is link (But you can’t even do that. Poor Ryu.) Kara canceling allows you to perform combos that would be impossible given this restriction. As mentioned above, Ken cannot cancel that second cr. lk into either super or funky kick if he tries to take advantage of the cancel window. However kara canceling makes it possible for him to still cr. lk, cr. lk super.
Edit: Oh yeah, you can still cr. lk, cr. lk super in this game. Well I can in training mode. I have yet to pull it off in a match.
FreshOJ is talking about the fireball faster recovery kara trick, and not kara canceling (or isn’t that renda?) in general. For sure that still works.
Regardless, I don’t recall hearing anything about the kara fireball trick no longer working. I could have just missed it, but I thought it still works in HDR.
I checked on sirlin.net, in the summary of changes for all characters, there is no specific mention to fixing a kara cancel glitch relating to fireballs and their recovery. At least none that I saw while I looked.
So it should still be in there right, unless someone wants to ask him.
Also, and I don’t want to bring sirlin in here like he came in to the fei long thread and put the beat down on people who didn’t like fei long’s changes. . .
But why was the first hit of ken’s knee bash nerfed, while none of the other throw loops characters’ not nerfed? Aside from that, the changes summary doesn’t say that balrog’s or blanka’s throw loop range was nerfed while it does say that ken’s and sim’s were.
I’m perfectly capable of dealing with it, I’m just wondering why all throw loops were treated differently, especially when I’ve gotten grabbed by blanka’s and while trying to mash out, bam, there goes 35% of my health.
I think Sirlin wanted to nerf the throw loop holds.
From sirlin.net:
“The change is that Balrogs throw range is now shorter, and the first hit of the hold does less damage.”
“Dhalsims noogie (his hold with the medium punch button) now has shorter range. He can still attempt a throw trap, but only from close enough that the opponent can reverse it.”
So Balrog for sure lost range and damage, like Ken. Dhalsim… only seems to have lost range. At least according to Sirlin. I don’t know why that would be, but maybe he just didn’t mention it?
Blanka’s bite is powerful, but I don’t think he can mix you up afterwards, can he?
Have. . . you. . . never. . . experienced the terror that is bite determined blanka!!??
He can hop through you for crossup, walk forward tick > headbutt/roll, possibly lk roll whiff to bite, slide your ass if you decide to stand up.
I haven’t fought a blanka lately that really has his shit down, but I’ve been perfected before by a blanka that knows how viscous those teeth are, it was actually two perfects, and then I ran away from him in the next round until he started catching me with slides and crossups.
[media=youtube]yd1EM-ViZl4[/media]
Starting at 1:30 should give you an idea of the terror that can ensue, this is ST, but most if not all of it is still applicable.
I found this in the first post of the blanka thread. Sirlin didn’t mention it, so I assume the person is probably right if they play blanka in the first place.
If its essentially confirmed for blanka, rog, and ken, Id assume its the same for sim. Question answered!
Er, I guess you’re right. I’ve been on the wrong end of many a blanka bite, but I just never really considered it the same “throw loop” that Balrog, Dhalsim, and Ken have. Maybe because Blanka’s entire gameplan is built off of shenanigans or something, I just consider his biting just another part.
I think what makes his throw loop different, is that he crosses you up by hopping through you and not actually ticking, but yeah his throw definitely gives him mixup options like the other three.
I was wondering though, honda has a bearhug and a kneebash of his own, can he throw loop with those? I could see him tick into oicho, fierce hands, go into buttslam. Is it viable for honda to try this?
Sirlin said he wanted to take out any abusable tactic that really didn’t need any thought/strategy. That was his though on nerfing throw loops in general since they’re relatively easy to execute and hard to get out of. So that’s why he shortened Balrog’s throw range so nod if you do the ST throw loop you don’t even need to reversal out of it (I think Balrog has to walk for a bit). But as you said some throw loops don’t really seem to have been nerfed.
I know you can rh throw (knee bash) walk up, cr. lk, knee bash, cr. lk, x n. I don’t know how solid of a throw loop that is.
I haven’t played with bear hug that much. I know you can cross under some characters but not other and tick throw. It’s really weird.
Edit: Here we go.
[media=youtube]pB1_TIoJy1o[/media]
I can’t get the bearhug into cross up body splash to work, though. Or the hk canceled into slaps.
If you go to the last page of the Blanka thread right now, you’ll see that Khiempossible posted a big ol’ tree of options for Blanka’s shenanigans. Go…now…read.
If you go to either the Honda thread or (better yet) watch the tournament videos that megamanpb posted in the Video Thread, you’ll see all of the very nasty things that Honda can do after his holds. He actually gets free crossup safe jumps on certain characters. Now…keeping that in mind, if you watch one of his last matches against a Chun Li player, you’ll see something EXTREMELY deadly! I commented about it on the YouTube page because…I suggested that it was possible, and sure enough, he proved that it was. (Yep…it’s in my FAQ, too.)
Go…watch videos…now!
It really pays to read the other threads on the forum. Not only do you learn about your character, but you know what to watch out for from other characters.
Basically, just press the jab button and, almost simultaneously, do the motion for your projectile and you’ll get a fast projectile with slow projectile-like recovery. If you’ve ever roll-cancelled in Capcom vs. SNK 2, then you can do this easily.
Sub in :lk: for projectiles thrown with kick buttons.
You’re barely supposed to see it, or not at all. I think OJ’s faq said this, but you should be able to hear the sound of the jab, that’s how you know it worked.
I searched and didn’t find much info on the subject, so i made a video. Feel free to correct me if any of the info i provided was false. Also, these videos are kind of fun to make. So if you want to see a video showcasing anything in particular, just let me know and I’ll try to throw something together. Unfortunately, i only have the training dummy to work with so keep that in mind.
If want to cross over from the right hand side, it can be done with the roundhouse overhead crazy kick (not at my Xbox now, but I think it may have to connect and knock down), but it’s pretty slow and perhaps useless.
A shame, this was a really nice move. I saw mattsun do it to aniken and wanted to have a go for myself.
Also if you are feeling brave, try using the roundhouse overhead crazy kick to dodge attacks at point blank range. I was checking out the hitbox for the move, and if you are close enough to someone (eg Ryu), your hitbox moves behind theirs for a split second. Maybe you can bait a DP, roundhouse crazy as they execute it and throw them as you come back into standing?
