- Rose’s far standing Fierce is actually a pretty good AA as well when timed and spaced right. In fact I think it’s one of of most under rated normals. It’s a pretty fast move and you can usually hit people trying to jump over sparks, close distance by jumping or hitting Abel on the recovery of his roll with the end of her scarf. If I’m not mistaken it also beats Dhalsim and Seths jumping Fierce as well.*
Nah, I’m pretty sure you can’t cancel normals into all the specials (ultras being a good example) Cancelling Abel’s sweep is actually practical for spacing keeping the pressure on. No practical reason for it in Rose’s game.
I think it was an oversight on Capcom’s part. Probably could do mad crazy stuff with it when they were playtesting and took out ST juggle properties, but forgot to remove the cancels.
As for decent Anti-airs. I used EX reflect to take out Honda’s cross up butt press at the NZ nationals last weekend. Sure I must of got lucky but it could be one reliable answer to jumpins if they buffed it’s hitbox or more active frames.
Canceling to ST isn’t practical, but sometimes it helps.
You do a dlp, the jump, heavy punch soul throw.
BAMMMM
These all seem pretty good i dont get your numbers though. Maybe u could explain them to me
Soul throw
start and active
Lp 6 and 9. change the invinc so that its from frame 6~8
Mp 6 and 10. change the invinc frames from 6~9
Hp 6 and 11 change the invinc frames from 6~10
Ex 6 and 11 change the invinc from 1~11 or 1~10. add 20 damage
This would allow rose to be hit during start like she is now but not during the
actually flight of soul throw making it invinc until the peak of the throw. This way we can still be hit but only in start up and if ppl anticipate the soul throw (usally when used at random) and attack at the peak of ST. The Ex full invinc or almost full invinc since we shouldnt be punished for anticapting the jump and using meter. The 20 damage is because they all do the same damage this should be the king ST and help in punishing .
**Drills **
Start and active
Lk 12 and 6. Leave as is maybe add some range so we can complete Bnb’s without meter.
Mk 15 and 6. Change the damage to 125. If the range buff cant happen for
Lk then change the Start up to 13 or 14 which ever one that will allow it to complete combos 100% without get blocked im tired of cr.mpxxmp.spiral and getting blocked or counter hit.
Hk 16 and 6. Change the damage to 150 leave everything else.
Ex. 13 and 6. Change the damage to 150 or 175. If 150 the make the invinc 15.
If 175 make the invinc 13 or 14.
Personally im good with the sparks as they are
i wouldnt mind the alpha 2 pushback on block but id take the other stuff before it
but i can try to help u out though on the numbers
Soul Sparks
Start up
Lp 14. change nothing
Mp 22. maybe move it down to 20. idk
Hp 29. maybe take it down to 24-26. idk
Add the blocked push back and i guess that everyone would be happy
im good with them either way.
i agree with Metro, Rose is not supposed to have an AAir game as good as #insert any shoto here# one.
Rose AAir options are several, but each one has weaknesses. This is the beauty of playing with her, you have to be good anticipating/reacting to your opponent moves/gameplay flow. If you miss, you will suffer.
still, a few more EX SThrow invencibility frames would be good (just a few) because sometimes it is pitifully stuffed when she has just left the ground, and that shouldt happen.
her fireball game doesnt need improvements also. HP Spark is slow, but because it has a fast recovery. You can choose between different sparks versions to confuse your opponent and to lead him into an Ultra trap.
again, she is not supposed to have a strong fireball game like #insert any shoto here#.
(of course, cancelling any cancellable cr attack into MP Spark or HP Spark is crap, but i guess thats not gonna be removed because this is how this game works).
what really kills her is:
-
her lack of reliable reversal (today a Sagat stuffed again my wake up EX SSpiral with a pathetic cr low kick, i hate that!!)
-
her lack of killer combos like most of higher tiered chars have, and the combination between that issue and her low stamina (hey CAPCOM cheated us, because in the official guide it says she has 1000 stamina, but the truth is she has 950!!)
-
lastly her lack of mobility compared with other chars with same stamina (look at Chun, she has low stamina but she has a lot of ways to deal lot of damage; same with Cammy).
pd. thanks Metro for your Dictator advise, ill have to try that. Currently i have no answer for EX HStomps other than block (no good) or anticipate it and jump back + HP.
So, she’s supposed to have killer combo like #insert any shoto here#. And a good reversal like #insert any shoto here# ?
But she isnt supposed to have an AA game like #insert any shoto here#?
fuckin LASERS N SHIT
Travesty!
These changes i listed for soul spark are for DevilKnight
(not that i wouldnt mind seeing them happen but i dont care either way).
They wont make rose’s fireball
games so great it would just make it bit more usable. If
u notice the mp only went down two frames which i think is pretty reasonable
and still pretty slow. The heavy is still tremendously slow but, not slower then akuma’s three hit hadoken. In the end i wouldn’t put this before the other upgrades/fixxes.
None of these would allow rose to win a fireball war with the other shoto’s just help her out in mix ups and things. (Ryu has 12 start on all hadokens he will always be able to out pressure rose in fireball wars.Ken is 13-14 or sumthin and Akuma is 14 start)
I agree with Luffy. Why shouldnt she have reliable anti air special? all the things u listed are options but there risk reward is very unbalanced. Example slide for anti air works but if the oppenet chooses to input or mash out a dp u just gambled 60 damage for 140-160, in their favor thanks to invinc on Dp. If rose could use ST reliably for AA she could avoid the risk of a trade/punish as she would stop them from even touching the ground so long as u get the ST out early enough.
I dont want rose to be top tier (cant speak for every1). I dont want her stuck at potienally good either. I just want a solid character and i dont think any of the fixxes i listed (cant speak for any one else) are going above that.
you cant have it all 
seriously, i think that her weak AA ability (this is debatable anways) is not what kills her, her lack of output damage and reliable reversal, her low stamina, and her low mobility is what really kills her.
(low mobility compared with other chars with same stamina or even higher). If CAPCOM are not goint to change the speed of her front dash, at least they should give her 1000 healht points…
btw, dont you all think reflects should have more active frames? more at the very beguinning of the animation… this would make reflecting high speed fireballers easier without breaking it.
I think the point of the thread is what to change to make her competitive, considering they’re aiming for a newer version that levels out all the characters as best as possible through tweaks on all fronts.
Some are still approaching it with the mind that they prefer Rose to remain worse than 3/4 of the cast, but would like one or two tiny improvements on things to make their casuals a little bit more convenient.
Example: why shouldn’t Rose be allowed to win any fireball wars? with tools like a reflect and the Ultra she has, you’d expect that to be part of the character style. It would immediately transform some of her match-ups, look at the chance Akuma gives himself against Sagat by removing the fireball war from the opponents options.
Then you can look at Ryu’s fireball game and all the opportunities he opens up at such low risk from the opponent’s attempts to play around them, cr.MK xx fireball on it’s own is just sick. When I look at Rose’s fireball game, what I see is her sticking to using LP Spark (against characters without a fireball) to setup offense by following it like Guiles Sonic Boom, but having to walk from the other side of the field because of the recovery. I see her players burning an FADC to setup a Soul Throw.
I can’t even think of a worse case scenario for the opponent on having their fireball reflected back at them. Rose has stepping up to do if she wants to be at the level of characters who can create so many openings off their low risk fireball. Her design is not going to be up to replicating the same effectiveness (and better for it), but the ability to close down other fireball games would be something valuable to use.
but if you improve Rose fireball game to make it as powerful as Ryu, and give her a godly AAir (like the dragon punch but instead being a hit is an air throw), and give her a reliable reversal, then she would be broke.
wow, if i had a “super Rose” like that in my hands, i would destroy 90% people in G1
Yes, comparaison with other char shouldnt be done.
Just sum up what she needs to be better…
I’m aware that improving her AA/FB/OH isnt a must have but it would still help her to be more competitive without makin her broken.
In my opinion, she totally need juggle ability from reflect (atm, when playin against non fb char, u can fully erase this move from her arsenal…), a viable reversal spiral, and a little boost on her dmg output.
She would be competitive.
Apparantly when someone on the ideas board suggested Sagat also get a doomsday combo off his uppercut worth 60% life and the focus cancel options selects for safety attempting it, plus it comes free with a trade, they all nodded in approval.
Think of the descisions around Rufus’ Ultra also. No way would anyone succeed with passing them on these boards.
Things like AAs and reversals are fundamental, they need to be good for the character to compete. Characters like Vega are bad for fundamental reasons; it means if anyone ever finds a way to be consistently successful with him, it’ll be through exploiting some unoticed cheese tactic rather than actual solid play.
Rose is somewhere within that categoery right now. SF4 is well balanced amounst the top 14 or so characters. Considering some things will be taken to help level them out, we’re looking to get Rose to around the level of Chun Li or Dhalsim at least.
Because of the way Soul Throw is, it will never be the best AA. EX Reflects or Spirals can’t be the best reversals. Putting her fireball game on the level of Ryu’s is not what I had in mind (mostly because I don’t think her move set would be capable of replicating the same control of the ground game that he can employ) but if she doesn’t have an edge of her own then she’s stuck in the same spot she is now with a defaulted and anemic game, abeit within a more viable and playable lower cast.
I would make a big change to Rose:
All her ex moves would turn into Soul Illusion versions:
Illusion Soul Spark - She throws one and her illusion throws another spark.
Illusion Soul Throw(illusion grabs opponent, throws him into rose who proceeds to throw him to the ground), really fast. Same invincibilty as the ex one we have(?).
Illusion Soul Spiral - two spirals for added damage. second one has juggle effect so it hits after HP soul reflect. invincible start-up, safe.
Illusion Soul Reflect - Double opportunity to reflect fireballs. throws opponent far away.
Her normal moves stay the same.
What do you guys think? Too strong?
LOL. u want her to be godlike or what?
I just want the idea of she having the illusions on her arsenal.
Balance adjustments would be welcome, I dont want her to be broken at all.
Being able to compete is hardly being broken, and in my opinion all characters deserve to have just as many tools at their disposal as Ryu. There are certain matchups where Rose’s only chance of winning is when the opponent makes a lot of mistakes (a.k.a. you’re fighting someone who lacks the knowledge or skill necessary to defeat rose.)
Rose can’t compete because she doesn’t have all the necessary options to win. She has no wake up game, her pokes, while having decent range and speed, are stuffed by most of the roster’s moves, no safe BnB, one of the worst AA’s in the game, and can only land her ultra if her opponent makes a mistake.
And to put the finishing touch on her tombstone, it all deals poor damage. (I am a bit frustrated with sf4 right now XD)
It’s really depressing to fight a Sagat, land 4 -5 combos / throws on him, and then get comboed into his half strength ultra for 75% of your life, while he has 50% of his remaining. :lame:
An extreme example, but one that happens often enough, and it’s simply because none of her moves are terribly useful, all have a low damage output (sans ultra which deals good damage), and she’s on the lower end of the stamina pool.
well, Ryu and Sagat (and somewhat Balrog) are over the top.
CAPCOM made them so strong that now if we wanted all chars to be at the same level, CAPCOM should buff them a lot.
i just would prefer to nerf the top tiers a bit (more scaling when comboing into ultra under some circunstances, like Ryus EX Hurricane into ultra, or Sagat HK into ultra, or traded dragon punch/tiger uppercut into ultra…) and buff the botton tier a bit also.
Rose could compete at a high level if she had enough tools, and that means a reliable reversal, and at least one powerful combo (HP Reflect into ultra) to make people to really fear her.
as said, if she had the same AAiring tools like Ryu, Sagat, Balrog… and her current speed and good pokes, combined with a powerful combo into ultra, she could be too strong.
could you imagine a Street Fighter game where the top tier char is other than the classic original ones?? thats not going to happen…
the kid’s top tier and his name is YUN.:party: