oh, well, SF3 was a bit weird game…
Rose was arguably the best character in Street Fighter Alpha 2. Her, Chun-Li, and Ryu and Ken had kind of a rock-paper-scissors matchup in that game.
Oh, how I miss Rose’s glory days sometimes…
before this thread goes offtopic 
i would like to post a resume, tell me what you think:
Rose Fixes for next SF4 iteration (without turning her godly):
- Reliable Reversal:
this can be achieved both increasing slightly EX SSpiral invencibility frames or adding invencibility frames to EX Reflect. For god sake, Rose would still need to save super meter to have a chance after a knockdown, this wouldnt break anything at all.
- Better AAir:
this can be achieved increasing EX SThrow invencibility frames. The EX version of SThrow should be able to stuff air attacks the same as Ryus or Sagats EX Dragon Punches are. Regular SThrow should be still punishable if misstimed though (regular version only useful for early jump ins).
- Better Reflect game:
this can be achieved increasing Reflects active frames, specially near the start up. This could help to fight fast fireballers like Sagat and Guile and to make this special more combo friendly/usefull against non fireballers (without breaking it).
- Reliable way to combo into Ultra:
this can be achieved adding the possibility to catch juggled opponents with ultra (other than the current focus attack air juggle), specially after a connectetd HP Reflect/EX Reflect. I personally wouldnt mind if FADC were necessary to make it happen. Sorry CAPCOM, the current EX SSpark FADC into Ultra is crap and not very useful at all.
- Slightly stamina rise up:
this can be achieved rising her stamina from 950 h.p. to 1000 h. p. Anyways, this is how it was supposed to be from the beguinning!!
Other minor tweaks:
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Get rid off the possibility to cancel crouched attacks into SThrow. Its mostly useless, unless you give her the possibility to juggle into SThrow.
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Talking about that, it would be interesting to be able to juggle into SThrow. HP Reflect into SThrow would inflict the same damage as the current cr HP xx SSpiral, so it would not break anything and it would give her more combo options.
Regarding Ultra after Reflects:
I wouldn’t mind seeing this work, albeit with certain rules:
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HP Reflect links to Ultra for free, but requires you to be very very close to the opponent for the HP Reflect to actually hit. Say it could follow a point-blank Strong but not a Fierce. This would just require tweaking the physical hitbox on the Reflect (which should be seperate from the reflecting hitbox so it wouldn’t change the timing for reflecting fireballs). This would keep you from doing sHP xx Reflect or sMP -> cMP xx Reflect which would both push you out of range for HP Reflect.
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LP and MP Reflects would have greater range (and they’d probably need to change the trajectories slightly) but would require you to FADC to get the Ultra. This would let you do full BnBs or farther-than-point-blank hits into Ultra at the cost of 2 bars.
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EX Reflect would be HP Reflect with a bigger hitbox and would allow for point blank Fierce/Roundhouse attacks to successfully be followed with Reflect -> Ultra without FADC. The range would be somewhere between HP and MP/LP so it would still be spacing dependent as to whether you could do, say, sMP -> cMP xx EX Reflect -> Ultra and such. I’d see this getting used when you’re just not sure if the HP Reflect will connect and don’t want to use 2 bars for FADC or only have 1; this would work as a safe guarantee. It would become less useful at higher levels because the player’s spacing would get better and they’d be able to figure out if they were good for HP on the fly; at this point it would still get used once in a while in some random situational cases (maybe character-specific again Blanka or Boxer or another character with weird hurtboxes) but would revert to more oftenly being used for actual fireball reflects.
But that’s in a perfect world. I’m going to do a writeup tomorrow on exactly what I feel should be done to Rose if/when Dash happens.
Edit: Also, in a perfect world, HP/EX Reflect would knock them perfectly vertically and really high up, giving you time to start a taunt before getting the Ultra in. Unnecessarily sexy.
good points Pasqual, although in my opinion it is not really necessary to reduce HP Reflect hitboxes because it reach is very short in fact.
the hypothetical combo st MP, cr MP, HP Reflect, Ultra needs a 1 frame link between both st. and cr. punches, doesnt it? so its not a guaranteed combo unless you are very good linking; so i dont see it broken.
maybe juggle propierties should be tweaked in order to make Rose to use FADC to combo into ultra after a Reflect, but taking into account how more powerful chars are able to combo into ultra without using meter, personally i think it is not necessary.
That would be very neat, and a deserved ultra.
I would agree with but there is one thing stopping me and
its ironically the hit boxes on this move. The hit box doesnt fully
connect at the range its supposed to have the advantage of hitting at
(full/Far) and For anyone that doesnt belieave me test it.
Go to training mode
and stand 1 box away from anybody i choose Ken and hit Hp
it will fly right through his shoulder, arm and torso. This is crap Capcom you could at least do her hit box justice and have it hit his torso or something.
DevilKinght i did the SSpark spec’s for you on page 2 check them and let me
know what u think.
nacor cb i wanted to ask you what Suggested changes
that have been made are godly?(besides the obvious) If u could give me some
examples maybe i could understand where your coming from.
As of right now i dont see it. And i did some reflect changes a page over
that are similar to what your saying (i think) so let me know, or are those what you mean?
I do agree with you 100 times over that rose’s health should be buffed to
1000 as it should have been from jump.
Nice stuff Pasqual though im not persoanlly for Ultra combos being her main change I like ur suggestions they are pretty balance but i want to ask what would u do about the Scaling. I dont agree with shorting the hit box on hp Reflects though its short as is and sometimes it still misses even after a crouch Hp(rarely but it does happen.)
well, i think giving Rose both strong defense and offense could make her too powerful (of course, not godly, i was exagerating).
buffing her regular SThrow (with the same priority like a regular dragon punch) could make her defense too good.
Im not for it, i think if we give her a “godly” (very high priority) special, it should be an EX one. this is why i suggested to improve invencibility but just for the EX SThrow (and EX SSpirals also; besides a good reversal it could work as AAir with a few more invencibility frames).
about the Reflect, i just tried to add your suggestions in my last resume post because i agree with you, that improvements are legit, because the current Reflects are quite crappy (ugh, try to start a Reflect war against Sagat… no way with the current ones).
lastly, i dont think she needs any fireball improvements. Of course, her fireball game is weak, but that how is supposed to be. If she had fast recovery fireballs and high priority AAir, she would be a supa-turtle (euh, well… like Sagat is).
Ultra combos aren’t really my focus in general for Rose changes, that’s just what I felt like writing up last night. I don’t want you to be able to connect HP Reflect after cHP and then link into Ultra for free. Then she becomes Rufus-esque, where she not only has easy setups for Ultra but higher damaging ones. I want there to be a seperation between what you can do and go into HP and what you can do that will go into LP/MP so that there are times you Ultra for free and times you pay for it.
I wouldn’t do anything about the scaling. cLP xx HP Reflect -> Ultra would do good damage without being ridiculous using the normal scaling conventions.
Here’s my other opinions on what changes Rose should get. They mostly will revolve around her specials, as her normals are almost all solid and her biggest issue besides damage output is her specials not working as well as they should.
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An overhead. For those characters who are not susceptible to the jLK instant overhead, turtling is stupidly effective against Rose. All she can do is chip damage and throw; the former a very slow way of whittling down an opponent’s lead, the other easily teched by someone expecting the throw. Either make fHK an overhead (with a bigger vertical hitbox below the current position of the foot) or a new, close range command normal.
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Lower the recovery/startups on Sparks. Not a lot, just a few frames here and there. I shouldn’t be -8 if I choose to end a combo with LP Spark and HP Spark shouldn’t take 29 frames to start up when most characters take less than half that amount of time. Lower startup on HP Spark to at least 20 frames and recovery on LP Spark by 5 frames. EX Spark is fine and I haven’t messed with MP in this regard.
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EX Spiral needs to be a better reversal. Add somewhere around 6 more invincibility frames. It should also be able to connect after Reflect/FA on airborne opponent.
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As discussed in my previous post, Reflect should link to Ultra and differently under different conditions. It should also link to EX Spark (which it already does), EX Spiral (mentioned above), and any level of Soul Throw; Soul Throw, however, should require a degree of timing to connect. The window for the actual fireball reflect hitbox should be increased by 2 or 3 frames.
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Soul Throw damage should be slightly reduced if it’s going to be comboable. Maybe just down to 110 or 120 instead of 140, I am undecided here. If the timing for Reflect -> Soul Throw is tight enough to require practice I could see the move going without the damage reduction.
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Her stamina isn’t a huge issue and shouldn’t be arbitrarily buffed. If they make a move towards decreasing the stamina gap for the entire roster I feel she should merely follow suit and end up at 975 or 1000 or whatever most of the other 950 characters would go to.
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I’d like to see a perfectly meaty slide linkable to cLP. The spacing would be pretty goddamned strict obviously, so there should be more reward than the regular throw mixup in this case.
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Fix the hitbox on fsHP. This was previously mentioned but deserves reiteration here.
And now, some notes on bigger changes they could do. I don’t necessarily think she needs any/all of these but they might make her a little more interesting. Worth consideration in opposition to some of the above changes at least.
1. Soul Throw could change to Illusion Soul Throw. For IST, an Illusion would go up to grab them while Rose stays on the ground. The actual catch would have a damage reduction but in return Rose would never get hit out; her Illusion would be vulnerable but even if it got hit Rose wouldn’t suffer any damage. Since she would remain on the ground, she should be able to link something after the catch if it’s determined the opponent isn’t thrown straight to knockdown; in this case, you wouldn’t have the option of HP Reflect -> Soul Throw, as she would then have a loop along the lines of cMP xx HP Reflect -> Soul Throw -> cMP etc. The recovery for a completely whiffed IST should be pretty high though; if Ryu doesn’t jump when you IST, he should be getting Ultra just as he would against another Ryu’s whiffed SRK. If it were to “trade” the opponent would be in the juggle state that only allows for being hit by EX versions of specials (including EX IST which would just be cool) as well as Super.
2. With slightly increased knockback, it would be nice if Rose could link attacks off of LP Spark like she can off of a point blank HP Spark. The extra knockback would make the loop only viable once before needing to FADC or finish off. That would create combos like this:
sMP -> cMP xx LP Spark -> cMP xx LP Spark
Which would branch off after the second LP Spark into either:
FADC, cMP xx LP Spark -> cMP xx LP Spark
or
fsHP/fsHK
This would be similar to Sakura’s sMK xx LK Shunpu loop but would require meter to continue it farther; the only danger here would be figuring out how to make the loop worth the meter while keeping it from being a one-touch-stun on everyone or worse. Maybe only off of EX Spark so you can only do the loop once?
3. It would be interesting if at least one level of Reflect moved Rose backwards as part of pulling the scarf out. If she stepped back during, say, MP Reflect, this could be used as a strong AA/get off me/reversal move under the right circumstances. It wouldn’t be godly as a reversal because there would be no invulnerable and would lose to meaty pokes.
Opinions?
Ok so your saying that if we give soul the the changes listed above it would be to
good? I dont see how because with frames the way they are, rose is still vunerable just not druing the actuall flight of ST (when rose makes the little blue power trail). I dont see the godlyness as she can be hit during start up and at the peak of this move. She would only be invinc during the main time you want ST to land which is interception periods.
The only one that’s god like is Ex. wich is invinc from start to finsh with 160 damage. Which i feel is within reason as im using meter and should be rewarded for doing so long as my attack is used correctly.(also Ex. attacks are mini specials/supers and should be buffed as such.)
****It would basically stop this from happening look at 1:10
[media=youtube]NqBMeBFF-7w[/media]
I know it was a cross up but it would have happened even if it wouldnt have
crossed up. The change i said would have at least let rose get by safetly. On a noncross up rose would have grabbed him like she derserved to do instead of getting a stuff off of ST’s bad priority or lack of it actually.
The SSpark improvements are not one of my main concerns but
I dont think the things listed are Overpowerd at all. Lp stayed as is,
the MP went down 2 frames this would just make the mix up in fireball
games smoother/better, while Hp just becaomes usable in fights.
Both are still light years slower in start up then every last character with a fireball with Hp being the only exception as it would be about the same start up as Akuma’s triple hit Hadoken but still no where near as powerful.
The only change i listed that i could see u saying might be to much(though i dont agree) is when i said the stun should be 70 instead of 50 and even this change isn’t a must have to me. Its honeslty me crying, i guess anyway, because ryu(just picked him cuz i kno his spec’s well) has 70 damage 100 stun fireball thats pretty spammable while rose Has 80 damage 50 stun fireball thats not spammable but has half the stun while only being 10 points stronger. I just think thats unblanced.
We all know rose’s SSpark as tactical uses but 20 more stun wouldnt hurt would it?
My bad if it sounds like im being jerk but im not trying to be, just trying to get you see something thats it.
Just make Reflect a useable move and I’ll have faith in her. It’s almost all the time the worse choice between it and FA.
Was that directed at me or Nacor? I believe the latter, just wanted to make sure. And ew, my NWM match :sad:
Edited my previous post slightly. Also, in the event any of what I posted seems like too much, then leaving it out in exchange for a little more damage would be okay; giving Rose a straight up strength buff isn’t the smartest way of balance but it would work since she’s just so damn anemic right now.
Wow, you guys are thinking hard about this stuff.
It’d be cool if you could absorb Blanka’s electricity LP reflect. Yeah, I tried it. Or maybe even absorb Bison when he teleports. Fatal KO.
It was for Nacor. Sry about the match my bad i just watched before my post and it was a good exapmle of what im trying to get fixxed on rose.
Some of the things you said are kind of big in my eye’s
like the -8 on block for soul spark. I dont know how that would exactly effect rose
(cant read frame data to the lvl yet) but i dont think her recovery is to bad to need to be changed. I could be very wrong but from how it feels when playing, i never feel like i got killed because sparks recovery is crap.
The reversal change u put up sounds weird to me. Your saying u want 17 invinc frames.
That’s mad long but im guessing u want to go that way without a damage buff. If so
i guess it balances but i wouldn’t want that id rather have enough to get me through a meaty
attack or fireball with a damage boost(14-15 invinc 175-150 damage), then being able to go about 2 squares far in invincability mode.
I have to ask y nerf ST damage its only 140 and even with that combo after scale its not going to do any thing that big. Though it would be strong. Why no health boost
STI is kind of confusing me theres alot going on for this to be a nomarl move/special
just break it down the looping part thats where i Was lost with no return.
Well they’re improvements, obviously. The thing is they won’t really change much which kinda defeats the purpose of tweaking the character for improvements. What I think is closer to the right mark is something Pasqual mentioned about having the HP startup at 20 frames, which seems more like it for my perspective.
Remove those 9 frames from startup and you get a total lag time of 44 frames which = average hadoken lag. Rose has extremes between her fireball speeds; while LP is one of the slowest in the game, HP is one of the fastest.
If you take startup out of the equasion, then her recovery off it becoming active would be pretty sick although the speed wouldn’t allow Guile standard Boom offense. She could however be able to trap neutral jumps over them which creates a competitive offensive dynamic.
Perhaps it could pay to add a frame or two to recovery and put her up to 46 frame lag in the interest of fairness; but to keep things in perspective, Gouken has a 17 frame startup on his own fireballs and his total lag time with them is 41 frames, so the concept is all within reason.
Keep in mind the new vesion of SF4 is just going to be a big patch to properties, juggle states and the like. New moves and aspects like Soul Illusions aren’t going to be coming till a completely new game is built. I’d thought about things like HP Reflect - FADC - Ultra right back around January, but with hindsight stuff like that isn’t neccessary. I’d expect top characters to be patched so that requiring that sort of thing isn’t the norm.
Move priority, frame advantage and damage output are all things going against Rose quite badly at the moment. Just fine tune them up and you got a standard, jack-of-all-trades character build. Next thing you have to do is create a dynamic in her game that makes things happen for her instead of having to do all the leg work yourself (that’s how low tier life is), make adjustments (like weakenings) to those frame-advantage/damage output base types according to your dynamic and you got a competitive Rose.
Example of the dynamic I’m getting at: if Rose’s focus attack were able to make more of the Scarf’s length and reach beyond other charaters focuses, that breathes more life into her Ultra and her footsies.
Clearly you don’t want to create like 5 different areas where she fares better than others, or you get another Sagat / {insert overpowered fighting game character here}. Just want to brainstorm a number of paths and decde on one ortwo that would be in the games best interest.
answering Kazdas post:
mm… im not against increasing SSparks stun, in fact it is a great idea because it would make her basic combo that involves FADC more useful (you know, using meter to FADC a SSpark instead just using a SSpiral).
i didnt list that in my post because i didnt think about it, but it is also a nice addition.
about the video you posted (the one where SThrow is stuffed by Zang body splash), in that situation it was better to use EX SThrow. Then, it wouldnt have been stuffed, so it is not necessary to add invencibility frames to regular SThrow because we have an invencibility SThrow already: the EX one! 
of course, EX SThrow is still not good enough. I have been stuffed in situations that it shouldnt happen (for example, a jump back Chun with HP at the very beguinning of the jump. it was like WTF!). Add few inv. frames to it and its done.
about SSparks, of course, a litte improvement would not hurt, but i think CAPCOM is very conservative and i doubt they would change so many things, thats why i tried to suggest as few things as possible…
Rose needs more love, CAPCOM guys… :_(
- Yeah I noticed this when I first messing around with her far fierce. I was disappointed as well that it doesn’t connect at the very end of the scarf. But it does seem to work better as a longer ranged anti air move like a ghetto version of Sagat or Bison’s standing hard kick. *
Goddamned would that be neat. From the right spacing you could bait wakeup Electricity and then LP Reflect FADC Ultra, all the while getting an absorb for your next Spark. Never gonna happen but it would be cool.
-8 is the absolute worst she can be, following a point blank Spark, and that’s on hit. She can go as bad as -12 on block. To give you an example, if you’re next to Akuma and hit him with sMP xx LP Spark, he can Super you after getting hit and it’s guaranteed. Several characters can reversal Ultra you on block and get it guaranteed.
I like the idea of extra invincibility more than damage, especially in conjunction with my other changes giving her higher damage. I wouldn’t be against Spiral going to 125 or so but 175 seems a bit much for her.
Nerfing the damage given the fact that you’d now be getting to link into it which changes the utility of the move directly. In conjunction with the idea of Illusion Soul Throw, it also makes sense to nerf damage here since it would be much safer and you’d take no damage on trade. Even then, I said I was undecided. I’m trying very hard here not to be one of those people who blindly buffs their mains in theory to god tier.
No health boost because the 5% health difference isn’t what’s holding her back. I am cool with a health boost if we’re adjusting everyone to make the staminas a little closer to one another but you can’t fairly single out Rose here and say she deserves it more than anyone else, so I consider it yes in the case of changing the roster overall.
The idea here being that you are safe if they jump and wide open if they don’t. The loop thing was the idea that a successful IST would pull them down in front of you allowing you to start a new combo instead of just knocking down. This would then create a loop of sMP xx HP Reflect -> IST, where you would be able to just do another sMP every time the IST connects.
mates, i highly doubt CAPCOM devs are gonna add some kind of Illusion move to Rose, it means a lot of work and almost a complete char overhaul.
SThrow, even if it were comboable, doesnt need damage nerfing, because the only way to combo it would be after a HP Reflect, and the total damage would be the same as cr HP xx SSpiral.
Rose deserves a health boost because this is how it was supposed to be from the beguinning (the official guide sais she has 1000 hp but it is not true), and because she doesnt have the same possibilities to inflict damage nor mobility as other weak chars (Chun, Viper, Fuerte).
anyways, i also think all chars should have similar stamina, because currently the differences are too big (some chars can destroy others with a few hits, sometimes it feels unfair).
I don’t think anybody expects to see any Illusion stuff with Dash, it’s just stuff that would be interesting.
Soul Throw being comboable probably needs at least slight damage nerfing since it would be comboing after another special, in this case HP Reflect. You’re getting two specials in the combo where most characters only get one. It shouldn’t be a ton less or anything because Reflect isn’t exactly a “strong” attack but if you do cHP xx Reflect -> Soul Throw you’re getting a total of 162 from the two specials with the current totals assumed and a total of 252 for the combo (compared to the 190 of your cHP xx Spiral, definitely not “the same damage”) which is more than any of her current BnB variants that don’t have a Spark FADC, for free no less. I know Rose doesn’t do enough damage and suggesting a damage reduction seems weird but you have to take into account the combo-ability variable.
Doesn’t she already have more stamina than Chun, Viper and Fuerte? The overall disparity for stamina should be reduced, you’re correct there; maybe 925 to 1075 for everyone minus Zangief at 1100, Seth at 750 and Akuma at 850.