I just need something with a quicker startup. I feel like people are constantly using meaties on me, even when I’m not waking up… Playing against Vega is easy… always keep active frames on top of him, because he has no invincible startups or even quick startup moves for that matter. He forced to just block and play your throwing teching guessing game until you do something stupid.
Sorry I will keep the vernacular to an absolute minimum.
That is my contention, a game such as SFIV that heavily rewards turtling and not an aggressive rushdown style, which can lend itself to Vega, should compensate for characters that are by design “poke and run”. It is simple statistics
- If your pokes do little damage
- You must therefore poke a lot
- Each of those pokes has an associated risk (the risk is even greater if you are behind on life)
- Each poke has X percentage of being stuffed/reversed, therefore sooner or later BAM Ultra in the mouth, specially if you did a lot of damage.
1+2+3+4 = Not a fun occasion for you (or me).
Agreed, this is what really skews balance:
How many characters can punish your (blocked) point blank short (lk) ST or Izuna with Ultra
Almost all (if not all right)
I have even had Cosmic Heel punished with Ultra. Christ on a crutch, an Ultra for a poke and in turn all they have to do is stay away from HP/HK specials and they are fine.
The fear of an Ultra is a very real tool to be utilised, it keeps stupidity and desperate pokes and tactics in check specially when losing or trying to wail on someone recklessly, yes we have to be careful with Vega, but its not reciprocal, we do not have the luxury of imposing such fear.
Question: ST.HP can be used to punish a FB? I did not know that, want to make a list of underused techniques?
Saving this one for later.
My contention is that if a turtle approach should be maitained after getting the life lead, then make turtling viable (which it is clearly not with Vega). The issues faced by us are
- Getting cornered
- Losing mask
- Lack of wake up/ get off me! move/s
I am not sure how Joz maitains turtle mode against Gief, in fact I have a little difficulty with this matchup specially against those Giefs who know the Vega matchup well.
I may have exaggerated the horse thing :), although not much I think. Vega is broken and he needs fixing, its just the particulars the community is not agreeing on, we all however know a fix is needed.
Viable escapes make some characters difficult to pin down, despite their poor strength/wake up options look at Rog, Rog’s wakeup game is arguably the worst in SF4 imho, its one of the tools we lack (with no meter), and if it were not for that “inspired idea” (mask loss penalty, very heavy on the sarcasm here) we could turtle until we find a way out (like Rog).
Yes but 1 frame faster than that meathead, surely Vega should take to the air slightly faster than that, this is what will make people think twice about FB spam.
One last thing, have a look at frame advantage on block for Vega and let me know what you think please (all of you).
http://www.eventhubs.com/guides/2008/nov/13/vega-claw-frame-data-street-fighter-4/
More to come
Appreciate the time and effort you guys are putting into the discussion. Many thanks.
Craw
Well, this is getting interesting. For a while, the thought that as he is now, Vega’s greatest foe is the game system itself, was crossing my mind. Like you said, this game favors turtling a lot, some of the reasons of this are that the game has good backdashes, throws that can be completely teched without taking any damage, mashing through blockstrings works, there are not many overheads in the game and reversals in general are just too good.
Now, think about this in terms of “Vega”. Vega can’t afford to turtle all the time. As soon as your opponent has you in a blockstring, you’re in trouble. With your mask falling off, you can’t take many hits while defending, and, unlike others, you don’t have a reversal at your disposal that you could possibly use to somehow break your opponents attack. This basically means Vega is a character in a turtle game that can’t turtle.
Now, there are similiar characters whose defense is not really great either. But they have offensive tools to make up for them. Sakura has really damaging and stunning combos but her reversal is ass slow.
Vega instead does not deal much damage, and as you already said, he does not only have to guess right a lot which involves a great risk every time, he also has it hard to break the defense of a turtling opponent because he has no real overhead or crossup. His only always viable tool here is his kara throw. And if he guesses wrong once, he’ll most likely lose the lifelead because of mask/health issues. The game’s “fast comeback” system damages Vega and is just another point that makes me think his actual weakness is the game itself. Why? Because unlike other characters, he can’t come back in a match. It’s really really hard because he lacks the game’s core feature - a viable Ultra, that grants him a comeback.
Do you see the “triangle”?
No offense -> High risk of eating Ultra -> high risk of losing a lot of health points
No defense -> High risk of losing a lot of health points
Not a lot of health points -> Can’t come back because no viable Ultra or damaging combos
I put that totally wrong, sorry. I meant Super Turbo st.hp. We need that one. At least I would love to have it…
Good footsies and zoning is the keyword. Not knowing the basics with Vega can be crippling, believe me.
I randomly throw out st.HP and you’d be surprised how often it connects.
Then again, you’d be surprised how often it ends up with me on my ass. It’s sorta 50/50.
It’s 1 frame faster to finish a higher jump though. Vega can get to Ryu’s apex much faster, but Vega’s apex is higher, so it naturally takes a little longer.
I think the fact that I can punish someone’s jump on reaction with a jump>airthrow (JWong, I’m lookin’ at you… even though you still beat me =P) says something about how fast he rises.
vega with a short jump like geif to bait SRKs and TU’s would be pretty fucking nice.
yea against Gief, I just hold my ground with st. hk, st. mk, c. mk, c. sp, st. hp, and the like. I don’t even go for gief on wakeup except for the occasional jump out fierce because that beats a LOT of gief’s shit. the only thing he can do to defend himself against the attack is block high. Beats lariat, grab, and an EX Green Hand is punishable on your landing. The best part about the vs Gief matchup is using FBA, making him whiff lariats, and punishing them
Agreed
You have to know the vega if your geif to be able to beat him because vega has alot of viable options for how to play against you, it comes down to play style and how well the geif can counter it and when he does whether or not the vega will start getting unpredictable and changing his shit up.
I think vega with just a few changes would be quite good. I think vega got a bad rap in SF4, he doesnt have the tools that alot of people have but he is versatile and no one can touch his footsies imo.
Vega with these things would be fucking down right scary
- a new ultra that combos
- slightly tweaked combos for more damage
- throws deal the same amount as sagat
- Peice of Mercury gets sped up and turned into an overhead
- allow different speeds on all of his specials by pressing a different button
this is all neccesary shit for vega, he can compete in SF4 but you need to outwork your opponent in order to do so. In SSF4 it would be awesome if i could fuck shit up with vega like in ST.
[media=youtube]gnJtw8a2euA&feature=channel[/media]
Working on something at present will post more this weekend.
;_; Claw!! That failed izuna in round 2 cost him the match, man. Loved the TAP baits, though.
I’d love to hear Vega say
“My beautiful face… YOU BITCH I’LL MAKE YOU SUFFER!!”
Agreed.
Give Vega redone voice bites for when his mask is off, to present his ‘flipped out’ persona.
Wow, that would be the best thing (or more like the only decent thing) about his mask loss.
I fart in the boxer’s general direction. Vega won. The End ;_;
That Vega player had mad reaction time.
that Vega player hit a combo with 3 1 frame links in it.
and yet he lost 
C’mon Capcom, make him better!!!:annoy:
I know :wow: that was mind blasting.
It was Makoto in disguise 
They just didn’t recognize him
Impossible. Those feet were too small.
Feet???