^^^first thing is you gotta stop playing online so much. there are only a few characters who are actually good online when you consider certain moves being near unblockable or unpunnishable with the lag. then you factor in the penalty of a dropped combo with the inability to accurately tech throws, and the list of online viable characters becomes very short. finding some good decent offline comp would go a long way towards changing how negatively you feel about vega.
secondly, every character is not supposed to have a dp. granted, vega needs his fair share of help, but the answer is not to give him something comprable to a dp. maybe less recovery on a backflip and more air throw range, but every character in the game having basically the same move would be a piss poor design choice. vega by design is a runaway character, so maybe you should focus more on that type of reversal for means of improvement
thirdly, if you have so much more fun with ryu, maybe he simply suits your play style more. maybe think about switching your main, at least for online
People keep talking about character variety and no reversal, but perhaps we should list the characters that do have reliable reversals to beat jump-ins or meaties, and see just how much variety there is.
Ryu- DP
Ken- DP
Sagat- DP
Honda- EX HeadButt
Fuerte- EX Tortilla
Rufus- EX Messiah, EX Snake Strike
Gen- Up-Kick-Thing, EX Walldive (Invincible to the Wall)
Dan- DP
Geif- Lariat, Ultra
Blanka- Up-Ball, Electricity, Ultra
Bison- EX-Devil’s Reverse/Headstomp, Teleport (Safer than Vega’s Backflips, and steerable)
Fei-Long- Flame Kicks
Akuma- Demon, Teleport
Seth- Erythang
Cammy- Cannon Spike
Sakura- EX-Shoryu
Balrog- Headbutt, TAP
Dhalsim- Teleport, Super
Viper- Thunder Ka-nuckle, EX-Siesmo
Abel- EX-Roll
Guile- EX Flashkick (Still not great)
So how is keeping Vega without any real reliable way to be safe on wake-up, even with all meters full, neccesary to keeping him unique? Everyone in this game has some way to get out when they need to. Even if they have to FADC and backdash.
Vega shouldn’t have one because he’s Vega? No. Vega should have one because this is Street Fighter 4, and everyone has one.
It doesn’t have to be buff. It doesn’t have to be brainless. It just needs to be reliable when you really need it. Scarlett Terror getting stuffed by my opponent mashing crouching short? Why should that be my problem? If I time my reversal and he is mashing, it should be his problem.
I want his EX Barcelona to be invincible on startup. Maybe that will help his wakeup game. It will also help him get out of corner because he can’t be interrupted on his way to the wall. This invin. should be for non-EX as well, just that EX is the only one that hits + launches his opponent.
I also want a valid way to combo/connect to his Ultra. It has to be more than just looks. Raise up the damage a bit too!
I think people are misinterpreting what I’m saying.
I do NOT want Vega to have a DP. I also don’t want him to have a fireball or even a way. I don’t mind if he has low stun, or can’t juggle into Ultra.
I don’t play online. I strictly prefer to play offline, and this is where it hurts most for Vega. Other characters won’t miss their links, resulting in less opportunities for Vega to punish and get back in the game. I don’t like online because the lag prevents characters from doing certain combos or setups.
What I think Vega really needs is his Ultra changed (faster wall start-up) and invulnerability frames on his EX-Scarlet Terror so that opponents won’t get free 100/100 mixups on knockdown. Wall Dives/SHC needs to get changed somehow, as they’re almost never used in high-comp. play.
This will be my last post, as I feel too many people here are giving him changes that are too broken (homing Ultra) or insensible (nj. hk juggle).
What I listed was Vega’s weaknesses. I never said he needed to get all of them fixed, I only provide a list of weaknesses so players can see how his design has too many flaws to be competitive.
Exactly. Making EX-Scarlet Terror good anti-air is what Vega needs. It’s not more juggle or Ultra set-ups. Ono said something about SFIV being similar to “boxing”. You read your opponents moves and counter with another one. Poke? Dragon Punch. Sweep? Lariat. With Vega, you can read his move (jump-in) but can’t do anything because Scarlet Terror is a terrible anti-air.
you seem to be misinformed about some of the moves you listed.
ex tortillia is not a safe reversal. you can mash it, but you land right behind your opponent and he prolly hits you with a combo.
gen’s wtf kick can be thrown and stuffed just like vegas shit. and his wall dive can be punnished as well provided the opponent looks for it. costs meter, but id actually like to see vegas ex dive have similar properties. only problem is that vegas can do damage on the way up.
blankas up ball is punnishable on hit if he tries to go thru a meaty attack. it only beats jump ins. electricity has 7 frames of startup and is non invincible
bison and dhalsims teleports are almost as bad as backflips for escape purposes, so i dont understand why you would list them. also check the bison forums or wishlist if you want to see how bison players feel about dr/hs. and abels ex roll can still be thrown. i also dont see why you would like to be able to wake up super or ultra. you listed that for a few characters as if it were an advantage
you seem to have a problem with jump ins, and or you would like something that you can mash on when you get in trouble. thats cool, but if you feel every character needs it, why not just make the game all shotos. give evryone dp>ultra and call it good.
dont misunderstand, vega does need some help, but not in the form of mash out reversal. if either backflip has less recovery, or air throw is given greater range, you solve a good amount of vegas problems without really changing him too much
EDIT: in response to him having a non situational anti air; if you look at the other characters with great footsie tools, with the exception of rog and gen, they dont get cure all anti airs. vega, chun, bison, dhalsim, and rose all have to pick their spots. by design, they control the space in front of them very well without much risk, as a trade off they are weak to jump ins at certain angles. that is not to say that their situational anti air’s could not use a little buff. and by the same token, the characters with great anti air attacks in most cases should have their normals nerfed slightly
Backflipping a jump-in is a recipe for eating x BnB combo.
Chun -> EX-SBK
Bison -> Invincible Scissor Kick / EX PC / ULTRA
Dhalsim -> Safe Teleports
Rose -> (EX) Soul Throw
These are good anti-airs. They might not be as good as DP, but many times better than what Vega has. Vega is the ONLY character without a special, super, or ultra reversal that can beat jump-ins.
Air Throw doesn’t solve everything, otherwise Guile players wouldn’t be complaining that Flash Kick is shit.
Sorry, I couldn’t resist it when you said certain characters don’t have anti-airs. EX-Scissor Kick as AA would be a god-send for Vega.
I am not misinformed. I never said that the reversals I listed were 100% safe, unpunishable, hit on the first frame answers for wake-ups or meaties. It doesn’t matter if some of them are punishable. Every move in the game should be technically punishable, otherwise it would be broken. What I said was that they were “reliable”. You know they are going to work, and not get stuffed, and they give you an opportunity to change the flow of the match. It’s a risk, but everything in SF is a risk.
Not everything is 100% safe, but reliable reversals like Gen’s invincible wall dive give you ways out, and prevent your opponent from abusing you. Punishable? It better be. But at least no one is going to jump on your ass ALL DAY because you have zero ways out. Backflips are not a decent way out. They are a “Please punish me over here” move.
Dhalsim and Bison’s teleports aren’t godly, but they can get them out of trouble when they need them and they force the opponent to react to punish. Which side are they going to? Did you lose your charge? Screw up an input? Not with Vega. You know he is going back and slowly.
Wake up super is an advantage. An Ultra or a super with invincible frames changes the game.
You might say “You never see wake-up super at high-level play.” Well one, you do, it just doesn’t happen often. Two, the reason you don’t see it is because it is so damn good, people are afraid of it, and know better than to let themselves get hit by it. I am not sticking a poke out at Gief, Blanka or Sim when they have super or Ultra on wake up. That is what their Ultra does for them. That is why it is good, so in a sense, it is a good wake-up because it prevents you opponent from trying anything without you even having to use it.
@ darkfroggy^^^^^which is why i said backflip needs help. less recovery would make it ok.
you really need to take a look around or maybe play afew rounds with these characters. ex sbk gets beat by everything except lazy jumps, and it still trades for lol 60dmg. scissor knee has 13 frame startup, and 12 inv, which means it trades, and can be safe jumped provided you see him flash yellow and can block adequetly, and EX PC is even worse. furthermore it also requires both of them to have down charge, meaning they arent moving and utilizing the tools that they have. ie turtling. if you want to turtle maybe you should pick honda rog or guile. they are more well equipped for that. furthermore, i cant think of a single good sim who utilizes wake up teleports. mostly because of the long recovery. and i know you just didnt bring up soul throw. your side of the argument could be voided on that point alone
fact is, these character types suffer when they get put in a position for someone to jump at them. they all have poor options for wake up. as a competitive player, if you are getting beat by the moves that you listed, then maybe anti air is the least of your worries.
i’ll say it again for the last time because i feel as though my words are falling on deaf ears. if you need a dp to survive in this game, maybe it is time for you to pick up a new main
and @ brentobox we are in agreement to an extent. backflips do suck in their current form. but if i had to guess, it was intended to be his way out of trouble, or “reliable reversal”, as you put it. i think mostly we had a bit of a misunderstanding when you started talking about people needing reversals. i think i may have mistakenly lumped you in with the other guy who kept bringing up ryu. the post about the moves was more to say that those moves were also weak. but im in agreement that there is no need for vega’s to be the weakest
100% Agreed. When I play characters with great wake-up options (Zangief, DP characters) I respect them on wake-up. Maybe I might try something cute when I think I’ve sat next to them and blocked or back-jumped their wake-ups a few times, but the mere fact that I’m not playing meaties on them 75% of the time I get a knock down is an ENORMOUS advantage to them… because you KNOW Ryu or Gief are going to play wake-ups games on you…
It’s like when people who main Ryu or Sagat say “well you shouldn’t be a dumbass and jump in on me when I have Ultra flashing.”
Well that’s a valid point, but the mere fact where you now don’t have to worry about jump-ins and can focus on ground defense whereas I’m defending you from the sky and ground… advantage = yours.
@ HNIC Mike
I agree with you on the backflips… I am almost positive that they were worried about backflips becoming a spammable move so they nerfed it with the intention of it being situationally good, and in the process it got overnerfed. I agree with their reasons… if backflips were too hard to punish, you would see them spammed like shoryukens and lariats online… it would be very annoying to chase down someone over-spamming them. Hopefully there is a happy medium.
Use vega’s air to air to stop jump ins. Maybe some of you are playing online, vega is very hard online because you need to react fast to whiff punish and get the anti air jump moves out in time. Granted you don’t get perfect anti airs from all angles, but Vega has anti air tools for most angles. If it is the case that you only play online, then I can understand your pain, but still don’t think we should sacrifice the balance and variety of the offline game for the online one.
There are no 100/100 mixups in SF4, mixups are comparatively weak in this game because of option select. There are a few exceptional characters, mostly those with command grabs.
Alot of dp’s listed don’t function as dp’s at all, and certainly aren’t that character’s go to for anti air. Sim using teleport as an anti air? What? Sakura using EX dragon punch? This is simply not how SF4 is played.
I already explained what nj RH juggle state would add to vega, helping out many of his problematic areas in a way that did not homogenize the cast, and still giving opponents the ability to jump in on him, which is crucial for his SF4 character design.
Edit: I should have read more of the posts, mike covered most of the things I wanted to say. Vega has the backflip, it was clear that capcom gave him that as a teleport type move, and I would not disagree that is it somewhat weak in its current state. Still though, vega maintains the second best backdash in the game, which is a great, comparatively safe get out of pressure tool. Mixing up his backdash, backflip, occasional pokes, and most importantly tons of option select throw breaks on all of your options, makes him far less vulnerable on defense than some of the complaints seem to believe.
I wouldn’t mind him grabbing an ultra with some invul frames though, that doesn’t seem too far fetched.
HNIC Mike - Vega being borderline free on wake-up is still an issue. Backflips being free damage for the opponent even the Vega player times it well and read the situation is an issue. Giving up a stock for a bad AA with no invincibility is still an issue.
Backflip just needs to be better and EX ST needs at least a few invincibility frames. At least 4 IMO.
Considering how bad Vega is on wake-up, you would think he would be harder to knock down… but’s he not.
I just hope they take him one direction or the other in Super… either make him not so free on wake-up, or make him really hard to knock down (speed, invincibility frames, longer pokes, etc.)
There’s also that business about his mask and claw. Anyone care to explain why a low tier character deserves to get punished for blocking? He loses his claw if he BLOCKS 13 hits. So far Capcom seems content with keeping him where he’s at. A little depressing, so it goes.
If you just make Vega better in all his other aspects, he won’t need good wakeup options.
That’s what I’d prefer. More of what makes Vega, Vega, and less of what everyone else has. I don’t know if you guys have noticed but Vega is hella fun to use. He’s different. I don’t want him to just get a copy/paste invul move.
The only thing I’d personally agree on is less punishable backflips.
Seriously. If he gets better backflips, his normals levelled up, none of that mask/claw bullshit and a better ultra in SuperSF4 (as well as walldive bugfix and an overall speed up) he’d be very high tier.
i’ve said it before and i’ll say it again; if you want to have vega retain his unique playstyle, there’s no point giving him any move with invincibility. it’s a unique weakness.
I will argue that he needs to have his zoning game improved. A strong normal anti-air would fix this immensely.
The problem is ST keeping people honest is what lets the rest of his game flourish.It’s what makes his formally superoir footsies and speed into a deciseve advantage.It’s not an accident that in most games he’s good its when this move is good.
