we might even got new CADC juggle combos with dem improved dash.
cl.hp is a possibility, but I think far s.hp will be too slow at the end. I can see cl.hp, c.mp, c.mk xx smasher working tho, or cl.hp xx CADC, c.hp xx or something.
True, I can only hope. I think you’re right tho; the still-pretty-long recovery of cl.st.HP will probably make it not work. Heck, it might not juggle with cr.MP either looking at cr.MP’s short range, but then we can go back to the MP MP MK juggle. Then again cr.HP xx CADC might work since cr.HP is 2f faster, juggling them at a higher point than it does at the current version.
Yea, like you said, CADC will open up new combos, seeing how it’ll only be 1f slower than Ryu now. Also, his f+HP has 26f hitstun and 23f blockstun, so CADC after f+HP will leave him at +3 on hit and 0 on block. Safe overhead with 19f start-up? Can’t say I’m not happy, even tho you’ll likely end up blocking afterward, and you can always backdash instead to “mix-up” their punish.
EDIT: I did some theorizing + testing.
What I tried was after EX Raze, do a normal and cancel into a 27f Mortar Punch. If cr.HP xx Mortar worked, then cr.HP xx CADC into another cr.HP would have worked since CADC into cr.HP would be 29f and cr.HP would hit the opponent 2f faster.
The result was that the only thing I could combo with Mortar Punch was st.LP, only frame perfect. This lead me to believe that there will be no CADC juggles possible.
Now, the good thing is that after EX Raze I was able to do a st.LP -> cl.st.HP xx Mortar Punch. Not only that, I was also able to do st.LP -> cl.st.HP -> Super link as well! I am pretty confident that we will be able to do st.LP -> cl.st.HP xx CADC -> cr.HP xx Phoenix Smasher after 2013, even with st.LP start-up nerf.
I have been thinking if goes a far distance it could be used kinda like an ex messiah kick, getting Paul out of thick pressure and maybe get a combo of it.
yeah something along those lines, but you can combo after ex shredder too 
you need to keep in mind that the start up changes as well, and therefore the height at which you’ll combo changes too, so I’dn’t count it off entirely.
how do you calculate your cancel frame data btw? I was under this assumption (non meaty):
c.hp: 6 Start Up, 4 Active, 32 Recovery, +2 on hit, -16 on block
Active + Recovery + Frame Advantage - 1 (due to 1st active frame being the hit) = stun
4 + 32 + 2 - 1 = 37 hit stun
4 + 32 - 16 - 1 = 19 block stun
I’m currently in training room and it can’t be that far off actually. c.hp, according to my approach yields 25 hit stun in the current version, thus you can’t combo into mortar with 27 frames start up, but you can combo into ex mortar with 24 frames start up, so that actually makes sense.
now I went into the lab and tried to cancel c.hp (on hit) into CADC and block. according to my tests I was at -4 (got hit with ken lp srk, sagat lp and ex uppercut, but not with mp versions from both), that means CADC requires 6 frames. I think you can input the CADC even faster and safe a few frames, but I’ll just take this for granted for now. so if we assume my approach is correct, that means in the current version the values are:
4+32-10-1 = 25 Hit stun - 23 dash duration - 6 = - 4
with the new changes that translates to:
4+32+2-1 = 37 hit stun - 17 dash duration - 6 CADC = +14
that would mean we have a legit c.hp CADC c.hp loop, or even infinity (as you can walk a few frames forward and still hit him). Oo
that would also mean c.hp xx mortar would be a legit combo, too. hell, even c.hp xx ex/mp sway would combo. - that has to be wrong, right?
I’ll wait with more calculations and combo finding, till someone enlightens me, otherwise I can’t sleep today anymore. lol
edit: btw
[The elbow part of Hang Over/Bone Breaker] - Can be cancelled only with Super
in the OP I have “demolition man” can be cancelled by super, did it change, was it mistranslated or misunderstood the first tame around?
Well, with an hour I spent in training, I came to a conclusion that most, if not all, normals with Paul, regardless of its strength, have the same float arc in the same situation (the opponent juggled from EX Raze actually has a different float from a juggle from normals, which would be a different situation); it would look different only because of height difference at point of impact.
st.LP is the fastest normal at 4f start-up (therefore juggling at the highest point possible), and normals such as cl.st.LK, cl.st.MP, cr.LP, etc. did not work, so I doubt a new cr.HP with a start-up of 6f will work.
st.LP is the only juggle from EX Raze that makes opponent float enough frames to be comboed into Mortar Punch cancel at current version. It had to be frame perfect with the juggle AND with the cancel, so I translated it into a speculation that a frame perfect st.LP juggle from EX Raze would have 27 frames of float, and that it would not work post-patch due to its start-up nerf.
Hitstun only applies to grounded opponent, so I did not regard that in case of juggling. cr.HP change log was that recovery is reduced by 12f on hit, so hitstun will in fact stay the same at 25f.
Yes, the earliest possible dash cancel frame for Paul is 6f. I was hoping they would reduce that to 5f like half of the casts in the game.
Thank you for pointing that out. That was a mistake on my part. Demolition Man is the one Super cancellable, not the Elbow. Guess I was half asleep when I did the translation :oops:
I know that hitstun doesn’t matter in juggles, I just didn’t wanted to make 2 new posts ^^
if the time of the impact doesn’t matter, wouldn’t the s.lp nerf be irrelevant as the opponent would float to the same height regardless, according to your observation?
good to know that 6F is the minimum, where do you know that from? tests, or is it a known fact, is there a list etc?
btw - we had a discussion about the c.hp change here as well, if you want to take a peek:
I think that means it’s -4 on block now as well most likely. does the japanese translation literally mean “on hit” (as in, NOT on block) or “on connect” (as in just hitting the opponent, whether on hit or block; so not whiffing)?
Are you sure about that? That’d be correct if you could cancel his :f: :hp: immediately after it connects, but unless I’m mistaken there’s a delay between the move connecting and you being able to cancel it, and a relatively large one at that (I think around maybe 8-10 frames).
Ah I see. My apologies for misunderstanding.
Actually, I was saying that time, or rather, height, of the impact is the only thing that matters.
The 6f was actually from the Brady Guide. I know some information there is flat-out wrong, but it seems to be generally accurate for Paul. I also did some tests as well for confirmation
Capcom was literally saying “on hit”, but you know they’re known for being ambiguous and not stating everything straightforward ;). For block and whiff, we’ll have to wait for patch.
We actually do not know if having different recovery on hit and block are possible, but just because Capcom didn’t do it so far doesn’t mean it’s necessarily impossible. They might be able to change cancellable frames.
Oh btw, according to the Brady Guide, everything on counter hit adds +2 frame advantage, except for the special cases such as crumple. I did it with some (not all) normals, and it seems to be correct. So CH cr.HP CADC would be +4 in fact.
EDIT:
Oh yeah, I forgot to think about that. I think you’re right. Thanks for pointing that out; I’ll have to research for the cancellable frames as well or just wait for 2013. Looks like I have to calm myself down; I’m too excited with the changes.
I feel you. x)
I didn’t read properly, I reread and now got what you mean, I’m still curious if the new start up of c.hp and faster dash allows us to CADC into anything else now.
For other characters, does it also read “recovery on hit”? I doubt that they’ll do something like this for so many characters tbh.
I’ll try to come up with frames for f.hp CADC in the current version as well. will hit the lab soon, then we can simply cut 6 frames off and know the new value.
They did the “on hit” thing for a few characters (about 4 tekken characters? I know Lei, Ogre and Bryan have them too), I have my doubts too as some seem to be a little extreme (eg. Lei. He has recovery on hit reduced by 15 on one, 10 one another one, and 25 on yet another one. Granted, all of them were -10 or worse on hit, but still.)
I thought it was like SF4 were heavies would yield +3 on CH.
mhhh very curious.
@testing
f.hp: 3 active frames, 28 recovery, -4 on hit, -7 on block. in theory you would be at 3+28-4-1 = 26 - 23 - 6 = - 3.
if my timing was legit (so earliest frame possible and 6 CADC frames), then he’s currently at -11 after f.hp CADC on hit.
this would mean that you can cancel f.hp 8 frames later than normally.
for v2013 that means we’d be at -5 on hit and -8 on block, so still worse then raw f.hp. tho, you can back dash as well.
I also tested ex CADC and was at -10. now since I don’t know if the CADC is faster for the ex version, or if you’re able to cancel f.hp earlier, I also tried c.hp ex CADC, and was at -3, instead of -4. I checked that multiple times and always got the same results. this would mean that ex CADC is 1 frame faster then normal CADC.
I also found out that sagat’s lp and ex can’t have both the same start up of 4 frames as listed, since I can block LP uppercut, but not the ex version, even tho I’m dead close, so the range can’t play a role, or something weird is going on here.
please feel free to re/dis -confirm my results with your own testing.
Thank you very much for testing. I’ll confirm a bit later since I’ll be working for a while. It indeed is weird that EX CADC gives you 1 frame of extra advantage tho.
Yeah, frame data is wrong in a few places if you’re reading the guide. for example, Ken’s cr.LP is +4/0, not +3/-1 as stated, since it can link into itself.
From what I tested, most heavy normals still seem to yield additional 2f on counter hit. I don’t think it follows SF rule.
EX SCDCs (CADC is a Super Charge Dash Cancel, right?) are indeed faster than non-ex ones, at least if it has more than 5 extra frames. A prime example is error1’s Poison combo, found here.
Note how he needs CH to combo a c.LP (4 frames, while s.LP is 3) after a normal SCDC, but can link a cl.HP (6 frames) with EX SCDC.
might be character specific then, as I only got 1 frame faster (if tested correctly). someone feels like affirming this and compare it to another character? :3
CADC = Charge Attack Dash Cancel
Well, Paul has 1 extra fram on his normal SCDC, while posion has 3. Seems they are just removed during an EX SCDC. However, I believe I had a discussion before with error1, that Juri could EX SCDC into s.LK (4 frames), but not s.LP (5). Her Dash is 20 frames, and hitstun of c.HP is 25 (Or 24? I usually add active frames (4), recovery (23) and frame advantage (-2), but I don’t know if I should count the first active frame or not). That would mean she gets only one extra frame (or no extra frames) instead of 5 during EX SCDC.
Personally I don’t like the term “charge attack”. We already have Cross Art and Cross Assault. I use SC since Super Charge is the official term.
well CADC is what seems to be the most common name for it. I’d call it CDC (Charge Dash Cancel), but what ever, I just go with the most common term since it makes discussion easier. you never use “charge attack” alone really, only in CADC, so there should be much confusing with CA for “Cross Art”.
Yeah. I don’t think it matters anyways, there aren’t really any other kinds of dash cancels in this other than Abel’s f.MK, so as long as the DC part is there people should understand.
Juri’s cr.HP has 24f hitstun. You have to remove the 1st active frame from calculation.
However, every character has some extra frames before they can dash cancel from a special charge, so I do not know how Juri’s 20f dash will be able to link. She has 5f earliest possible dash cancellable frames, so it would be 5+20=25f for a dash cancel.
About EX dash cancel however, I might have the answer, tho it’s just a speculation.
Paul’s earliest possible cancel frame is 6f, and Poison’s earliest possible cancel frame is 8f. I’m wondering if cancelling from EX moves enables everyone to cancel from 5f.
I just wish they’d given Paul a few more Tekken Strings. Things like Double Strike (b.LP xx MP, quick 2-hit string into overhead/ground bounce), Piston Fire (f.LK xx MP, Cancellable 2-hit string) and Jaw Breaker+Follow-ups (df.MP xx LP/MP. Low, dashing elbow followed by a quick punch knocking down or a slow, low launcher, which can be aborted by holding back).
how awesome would have been dashing elbow + followups as special move or command normal. I’d take that offensive mixup over morta / raze / sway any day. the initial elbow dash would be -2 or something on block and go through projectiles.
-lp followup would be into (lp) sway to back out.
-mp followup would be a “mid”-hit (aka has to be blocked standing) that is somewhat punishable on block, but comboable after the initial hit. with just frame it would become phoenix breaker, neutral on block and increased damage on hit.
-hp followup would do his stone breaker and not be comboable but a juggle launcher (like ex raze) and has to be blocked crouching but only with a small gap in between so you’re forced to block (or reversal) and not just mash jab in between.
if you press any kick during the dash it would end without the elbow hitting, so it would be like dudley’s. (and look like his own forward sway in tekken).
ah the pressure, the possibilities, the mix up… :<