SFxT Standing Resets

Classic Fighting Games Street Fighter x Tekken
1

I hate rolls. I hate that after I gain the advantage with a hit or a combo I have to respect my opponent’s roll/stand option in such a way that I can’t always get the meaty situation I want. Sure, I can make a read or just stand in between roll and stand distances and react. But why should I? I’d rather just not let you roll away.

Some characters in this game have real standing resets to finish their combos. That is, you can hit the opponent with a ground bounce, wall bounce, or even hard knockdown, and if your character has the right move, you can end your combo with the opponent standing right in front of you unable to roll away. Here are the characters and moves I know so far:

[media=youtube]lKXoLi2yifo[/media]
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CHARACTER NAME (CONDITION): MOVE TO FORCE STANDING RESET, NOTE
[LEFT]Chun (ground bounce): close st mk[/LEFT]
[LEFT]Heihachi (ground bounce): ex raijin stance (hcb+p), only works if 1st hit connects[/LEFT]
[LEFT]Hwoarang (ground bounce): middle kick combo (mk, mk), first hit must whiff[/LEFT]
[LEFT]Jin (ground bounce): ex median line destruction (toward back toward+pp), random hit in the middle of it, opponent stands up and blocks the rest[/LEFT]
[LEFT]Juri (ground bounce): mk senpusha (qcb+mk), third hit[/LEFT]
[LEFT]Kazuya (ground bounce): hk rising sun (qcb+hk), cr mp, can combo after[/LEFT]
[LEFT]Law (ground bounce): close lp back+mp mp, can combo after[/LEFT]
[LEFT]Lili (ground bounce): dive kick (air qcb+k)[/LEFT]
[LEFT]Lili (ground bounce): heel stomp (toward+lk lk), only works if 2nd hit connects[/LEFT]
[LEFT]Marduk (ground bounce): catapult tackle combo (far hp, down+pp), first hit must whiff[/LEFT]
[LEFT]Nina (ground bounce): rolling dash backhand slap (hcb+k, pp)[/LEFT]
[LEFT]Ryu (any comboable knockdown): ex dp xx switch cancel, walk the opponent out of it[/LEFT]
[LEFT]Sagat (ground bounce): any strength tiger knee (dp+k), last hit must whiff[/LEFT]
[LEFT]Steve (ground bounce): foot stomp (down-back+lk)[/LEFT]
[LEFT]Xiaoyu (ground bounce): ex hakkesho (qcb+pp), only works if 2nd series connects[/LEFT]

Some of these require ex meter and some of them have to be set up by a partner, but spending a bar or even two bars to guarantee where your opponent will be after a significant combo can be very important sometimes.

As far as I can tell, these fall into two categories: capture states, and random stuff.

The only semi-capture state I’ve found is Ryu ex dp, which captures the opponent but can then let the opponent go. There are also full capture states, like with King reverse arm slam (qcb+p) and Yoshi windmill (hcb+p) that can both combo after knockdowns and be switch canceled, but once they get started, they won’t let the opponent go, so you can’t push the opponent out of them.

The other moves just… seem to work for some reason. I’m not sure why. Props to you if you can figure out whether there’s a common thread between Chun close st mk (a normal), Heihachi hcb+pp 1st hit (a ground special), Lili dive kick (an air special), and Steve down-back+lk (a command normal).

I’m working on a video to show this stuff, but I wanted to put up a thread first to see if there are any other known standing resets I haven’t found yet. Anyone?

2

Standing reset innovation I think is very important. One of the reasons I like Julia is because she can do a full combo all while the opponent is standing. Good idea to compile a list of characters who can restand.

3

This information was on nina’s forum you can end her combos with the arm snap but interrupt on the first but there are some invulnerabilities on both sides check her specific thread for more info

4

This isn’t SF2 or SF4, nor does it have to be. I don’t know why you would go into it with the mind set of hating it, rather than seeing it as the new rules of a new game.

Not every fighting game has to fit within the “go for the knockdown, do meaty pressure on wake up” archtype that SF2 and SF4 have laid out for us.

In SFA3, people barely even GET knocked down. Darkstalkers has wakeup rolls.

Different =/= Bad

5

Xiaoyu (comboable knockdown): EX Hakkesho (214PP), hard to set up due to slow startup

One possible setup for the above would be switch-canceling Law’s 41236HP in the corner into Xiaoyu and then backdashing and using 214PP.

6

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[media=youtube]8kFeqD48XCE[/media]

7

I agree w/ this and it is the first thing I thought after reading UltraDavid’s opening arguments. So because he can’t get meaty pressure off every knock down, and has to guess, he hates the roll mechanic? The whole point of rolling is to force the opponent to guess, and hopefully guess wrong.

8

This might be me trolling, but I can’t help but wonder if at least a good portion of these players that hate the roll mechanic hate it because they would rely on Akuma or Ibuki vortex tactics in SSFIV.

9

The knock down meant so much in SF4 that it’s hard to let it go. I don’t agree w/ UD but, I think it’s great that he’s putting out anti-roll tech.

10

Nobody wants that (coming from a SF4 Ibuki player). But players should still be rewarded after earning a knockdown, and because of rolls being completely safe it’s really not as important as it was in SF4.

11

To be fair, trying to break or abuse mechanics to work in your favour is kind of like the initiation process of a new fighter.
You can deal with the new mechanic (rolling) by working with it or finding ways around it.
Standing resets is a perfectly viable way to work around the rolling mechanic if someone doesn’t like it.

As for the topic at hand, I already spammed the crap out of UltraDavid on twitter, but I’ll post it here for posterity.
Lili’s Heel Stomp (forward+lk, lk) sets the opponent into a unique reeling state where they grab their toe in agony.
You can effectively use this to skip out portions of your partner’s moves, like Steve’s Albion Combination to skip the final hit that ground bounces.
But for your specific topic the Heel Stomp also puts the opponent into the reeling state from a ground bounce as well, giving Lili two ways to do a standing reset from a ground bounce or forcing a standing reeling state from between a multi hitting move from your partner.

12

Thanks, I’ll check out Xiaoyu ex hakkesho and Lili heel stomp when I get home. I appreciate the feedback, Dr. Grammar and Zarcon! I’ve heard that there’s other tech to leave the opponent standing after Ryu ex dp other than switch cancel into pushing the opponent out of it, but I haven’t heard what it is. Any ideas?

Also, it’s not about whether this is like any other game or not. So many of the people who’ve stuck around in this forum are defensive about SFxT! I don’t need this game to be like SF4 or SF2 or Skullgirls or Fighter’s Destiny or anything else. But, I DO want the ability to build and maintain pressure, and unfortunately unpunishable roll, quick stand, quickstand timing variation, invincible backdash, small throw range, long startup on normal throws and command grabs, huge stage length, reversal xx switch cancel, and alpha counters all conspire together to make pressure harder to build and maintain than I’d like. So it’s only natural that I look for ways to cut out as many of those as I can. By ending combos with a forced standing reset at the distance I want, I don’t have to think about roll, quick stand, quickstand timing variation, small throw range, or reversal xx switch cancel quite as much.

Since the game came out, I’ve been looking for non-knockdown combos that allow me to deal significant damage while denying the opponent some of the escape options this game wants to give them. And I’ve found a lot. Moons is right, Julia can do some great non kd combos; I was one of her early proponents for that exact reason. I can imagine a world where characters who can leave their opponents standing after combos are noticeably better on offense than those who can’t because they can maintain their offense more effectively. Unfortunately, significant non kd combos are pretty rare, it’s pretty much just 5-10 different characters that have them (at least, as far as I’ve found so far). I believe standing resets are a way to make more characters more effective on offense, because now they can use their significant knock down combos but then either reset the opponent standing or switch into a character who can.

Again, it’s not just this game. I’ve always looked for ways to increase the attacker’s advantage. For example, those offensive SF4 style option selects? A big chunk of the reason for their creation and adoption, certainly at least in the West, is due to these videos I made in 2009. At the time, SF4 was thought to be a defensive game in which the attacker didn’t really gain much advantage for a knockdown. It’s funny, nowadays people complain about exactly the opposite heh. We had already heard about the Akuma vortex when I came out with these vids, but the Zangief option select vid helped people realize that a lot more of the cast can be almost as dangerous in meaty situations. Then people started coming up with delayed quick get up, non reversal wakeup specials, etc. It was this whole fun arms race that led to where we are today. I think a couple characters in SF4 take it to an unfortunate extreme, but for the most part I’m pretty happy about helping offensive pressure in that game.

Here’s to hoping that we continue to find more ways to make SFxT a faster game in which pressure is more viable and rewarding!

13

Well I’m looking at it from the other perspective, and I wouldn’t want to be KOd by Hugo just because I got knocked down once, because he can do >1000 DMG in 2 combos. That’s why I don’t play Marvel. I like at least 1 more chance to guess right before going home to be a family man.

How many times does Gief need to KD Ryu to get a KO in AE? More than once, even with super.

14

Unfortunately I do not know much about re-standing, but in terms of offense and pressure, have you been able to catch Gamerbee’s matches at Shadowloo Showdown? First off, his match with Poongko was the hypest I’ve ever seen SFxT. More importantly though, he showed just how much damage you can do while not letting up. He scouted how Poongko reacted on wakeup, and makes essentially a full lifebar comeback based on one or two correct guesses.

I think that’s why they had to include so many defensive options. So much of the cast has so many mixup options in their wakeup games it is enough to make El Fuerte green with envy. If there was super consistent ways to get a hit on wakeup, even just a jab, the damage would be just a little too insane.

Sorry I cannot contribute much to the topic. Someone came up with an option select that has super jumps auto-correct when they roll, but only a select few characters can really take advantage of it.
[media=youtube]DxxZynSP2LI[/media]

15

I’m confident everyone has it in some form. They may not set up off the same methods or versions of chain attacks. Bison has one off a forward throw but the timing is some what strict and it is not safe against some fast anti-airs.

16

It’d be nice if we contributed instead of talking about whether we like the mechanic or not(there are other threads for that).

Tag-canceling the second hit of Kazuya’s Spinning Demon and connecting with pretty much anything after will cause a restand/grounded combo continuation.

17

I think it’s a reaction to how vehement the response has been. Every front page post on SRK and EH about SFxT tech is filled with negative comments. When you are trying to like something (sometimes, seemingly despite Capcom’s best efforts) and everyone around you is saying awful things about it, it wears you down. Especially since this is supposed to be a fun hobby for most of us.

Anyway, I don’t have anything to add to your tech, but I appreciate the new developments and hopefully it leads somewhere interesting! I am a little skeptical of spending tons of meter just for the one mixup, though. Like, my team is Jin/Ryu (both characters on your list), but I wouldn’t really know how to use this tech. With Jin, let’s say I hit with a low forward xx special step LP, so my opponent is launched. If I want to tag, I’ll do st.MK xx special step LP, tag, then just do a basic finisher with Ryu. It feels strange to spend two more meters (so that’s all 3 bars total) just to do EX DP and push out? I’ll be at even frames at best (?) with my opponent point blank and I’m still susceptible to reversals and backdashes. If I finish the Jin BnB with a hard knockdown, I can stand at that middling range and react and still basically be almost even frames regardless of roll, still within range of most of the normals I want to use. Is the extremely painful 2 meter cost really worth this extra bit of advantage? I would have to see video proof of some sick setups or the adaptation of some other mindgame to believe it, I think.

18

Doesn’t Lili also hav one during her QCF+K. I haven’t played with it too much, but its really fiddly. I’m pretty sure you have to hit with the QCF+K just right and the timing is tight, then you’ll probably need to hold them in place with jabs while the QCF+K finishes. Still, they will be standing, and at that point you can make a case for a reset rather than continuing the combo.

19

Imo it’s weird to just try to like something. If you don’t like it, either drop it or work to change it. Thanks for the support, though! And yeah, I don’t think spending 3 bars is a great idea most of the time. Jin’s basically sucks anyway, it seems to always leave the opponent waking up into the last, unsafe hit of ex median line destruction. Ryu’s seems practical to me, I wouldn’t mind doing a combo into ex dp switch cancel then start some significant non-kd combo with my incoming character. You can even do his as an antiair into non-kd combo, depending on how deep you get the antiair ex dp.

Anyway, I’m uploading a video right now.

20

Yay! Here’s a video:

[media=youtube]lKXoLi2yifo[/media]