SFV wants to SELL THE FGC to the masses. Will it be worth a barebones release?

[Muttonman]

I agree about the need for a good, in-depth tutorial mode. I understand the points made about trying to convince people to go to Twitch and watch other players in order to learn, but I feel like this is taking a huge leap of faith. You are asking new players to devote a pretty good amount of their time to the game (you asking them to devote time to it even when they aren’t playing), and, more importantly, you are counting on them being able to fully comprehend what they are seeing via replays/stream. I understand that this is part of Capcom’s goal with this game. However, imo a better strategy would be to offer a GG-esque tutorial mode, and then inform players that they can learn more about MU, combos, general strategy via replays/stream. This way players will at least have some sort of solid foundation to build from.

i’m sorry to go back to league of legends -again-, but that game did not and still does not have a good tutorial mode that really explains how to play. it is also incredibly unintuitive to the point that it takes your average person half a year of playing just to be below average. that is where the community comes in…youtube, twitch, reddit, random forums, websites devoted to stuff like this such as mobafire or probuilds or whatever else they use these days, your friends who already play, GOOGLE bruh. a good in-game tutorial might slightly increase the general level of play but that doesn’t really actually matter unless there’s a bar saying “must be this good to pass” in the way of you playing the game. matchmaking is what will lift that bar.

You can blame your teammates in Dota and it’s clones to keep your ego intact. You sure as shit can’t do that in SF.

[chatshire]

You can blame your teammates in Dota and it’s clones to keep your ego intact. You sure as shit can’t do that in SF.

fighting games have plenty of dunning kruger going around already. in fact, if anything the problem is that right now they got stomped on so hard that they don’t even have a chance to try to rationalize their failure.

[Evil_Canadian]

I agree about the need for a good, in-depth tutorial mode. I understand the points made about trying to convince people to go to Twitch and watch other players in order to learn, but I feel like this is taking a huge leap of faith. You are asking new players to devote a pretty good amount of their time to the game (you asking them to devote time to it even when they aren’t playing), and, more importantly, you are counting on them being able to fully comprehend what they are seeing via replays/stream. I understand that this is part of Capcom’s goal with this game. However, imo a better strategy would be to offer a GG-esque tutorial mode, and then inform players that they can learn more about MU, combos, general strategy via replays/stream. This way players will at least have some sort of solid foundation to build from.

i’m sorry to go back to league of legends -again-, but that game did not and still does not have a good tutorial mode that really explains how to play. it is also incredibly unintuitive to the point that it takes your average person half a year of playing just to be below average. that is where the community comes in…youtube, twitch, reddit, random forums, websites devoted to stuff like this such as mobafire or probuilds or whatever else they use these days, your friends who already play, GOOGLE bruh. a good in-game tutorial might slightly increase the general level of play but that doesn’t really actually matter unless there’s a bar saying “must be this good to pass” in the way of you playing the game. matchmaking is what will lift that bar.

You can blame your teammates in Dota and it’s clones to keep your ego intact. You sure as shit can’t do that in SF.

That is legitimately one of the things that keeps mobas going. I have seen so many friends and acquaintances blame everything under the sun but themselves when playing league. Delusion on mass scale.

[DevilJin_01]

I’m talking more about your Xrd “here’s some common situations and ways out, find what method works best for you.” Having it actually programmed into the game is a million times better for new players than having to mess with the training options to try practicing against Nash Boom + Moonsault pressure, Laura EX Fireball resets, etc etc.

That stuff is coming in March from what I’ve heard. Specific tutorials and tips for each character

This really should have been day 1 though. You’ve got a whole month for people to say “fuck this game, that’s bullshit.”

I can’t help but feel someone screwed up their project management over at Capcom.

I played KI for 2 years I’m used to it. This will add up much faster than that game though and people will be in there.

@RawSteelUT it will be tutorial based stuff like what’s in KI or Guilty Gear. You’re actually actively doing stuff and training.
*
Continuing on, details about Challenge Mode were also announced for the first time. Challenge Mode consists of 4 sub-modes, each of which has been designed to help you improve your skills and gameplay:

** Battle Tips

Learn the ins and outs of Street Fighter V through helpful demonstration and tutorial content. Contains content for each of the 16 characters, as well as advice geared towards all levels of players.**
Available March 2016


Trials

Put your skills to the ultimate test with combo trials for all 16 characters, ranging from basic to pro combos.
Available March 2016

Targets

Complete daily renewing goals to earn fight money, in-game titles, and other cool content.
Available soon after launch.

Extra Battle

Fight against special CPU bosses in the ultimate challenge. Earn in-game rewards upon completion.
Available soon after launch.

[chatshire]

That is legitimately one of the things that keeps mobas going. I have seen so many friends and acquaintances blame everything under the sun but themselves when playing league. Delusion on mass scale.

what, you don’t see this in the FGC?

[DevilJin_01]

I agree about the need for a good, in-depth tutorial mode. I understand the points made about trying to convince people to go to Twitch and watch other players in order to learn, but I feel like this is taking a huge leap of faith. You are asking new players to devote a pretty good amount of their time to the game (you asking them to devote time to it even when they aren’t playing), and, more importantly, you are counting on them being able to fully comprehend what they are seeing via replays/stream. I understand that this is part of Capcom’s goal with this game. However, imo a better strategy would be to offer a GG-esque tutorial mode, and then inform players that they can learn more about MU, combos, general strategy via replays/stream. This way players will at least have some sort of solid foundation to build from.

i’m sorry to go back to league of legends -again-, but that game did not and still does not have a good tutorial mode that really explains how to play. it is also incredibly unintuitive to the point that it takes your average person half a year of playing just to be below average. that is where the community comes in…youtube, twitch, reddit, random forums, websites devoted to stuff like this such as mobafire or probuilds or whatever else they use these days, your friends who already play, GOOGLE bruh. a good in-game tutorial might slightly increase the general level of play but that doesn’t really actually matter unless there’s a bar saying “must be this good to pass” in the way of you playing the game. matchmaking is what will lift that bar.

You can blame your teammates in Dota and it’s clones to keep your ego intact. You sure as shit can’t do that in SF.

That is legitimately one of the things that keeps mobas going. I have seen so many friends and acquaintances blame everything under the sun but themselves when playing league. Delusion on mass scale.

What do people blame when they play DAT MADDEN?

[Skiegh]

This is slightly off-topic, but since everyone is mentioning League and teammates, it brought something back to my mind.

You want players to learn this game?
You want players to stay and feel engaged?

Why, the fuck, is there no team mode?

People love playing together, as a team, against other teams. Be it in some sort of tag-in style method or in the same method that Japan uses for a lot of it’s 3S tournaments. We need a mode like that. It would let others feel like they’re winning, even if they’re not doing too well. It also let’s them watch and learn when they’re not playing.

Also I want it…

[d3v]

Bring back the old 90’s “it’s fun to play against your friend or new stranger rival” and “people do it all of the time offline at events that might be around you”.

I think a lot of it will depend on Capcom’s willingness to bring more events to more places. I don’t live in a podunk town, but jack shit happens with fighting games around here that I can tell (maybe hangin’ round here more, I’ll find more Miami, FL events), but a game like this will live and die by that experience of being next to one another, and there needs to be more access to that sort of experience.

Capcom now has 72 individual tournaments in the Pro Tour. That’s more tournaments than there are weeks in a year. Plus, these are divided into 4 regional tours now, so I think Capcom’s off to a great start on this.

[Muttonman]

That said, I definitely agree with the main thesis here; Capcom wants SFV to be one of those games you just pop in with friends, same as Madden, Smash, and FIFA.

I think the problem is that the sports games tend to have some sort of rubber banding involved though and Smash is way easier to play at a super casual level.

[chatshire]

https://youtu.be/6eYbOCrn8Vs

I believe it. I don’t even play it a lot online, but I’ve seen that attitude a lot on Call of Duty as well. Probably what will keep fighting games from reaching those heights - these games will crush any but the most delusional person’s hopes quickly.

that is where the matchmaking is going to come in.

[drunkards_walk]

I agree about the need for a good, in-depth tutorial mode. I understand the points made about trying to convince people to go to Twitch and watch other players in order to learn, but I feel like this is taking a huge leap of faith. You are asking new players to devote a pretty good amount of their time to the game (you asking them to devote time to it even when they aren’t playing), and, more importantly, you are counting on them being able to fully comprehend what they are seeing via replays/stream. I understand that this is part of Capcom’s goal with this game. However, imo a better strategy would be to offer a GG-esque tutorial mode, and then inform players that they can learn more about MU, combos, general strategy via replays/stream. This way players will at least have some sort of solid foundation to build from.

i’m sorry to go back to league of legends -again-, but that game did not and still does not have a good tutorial mode that really explains how to play. it is also incredibly unintuitive to the point that it takes your average person half a year of playing just to be below average. that is where the community comes in…youtube, twitch, reddit, random forums, websites devoted to stuff like this such as mobafire or probuilds or whatever else they use these days, your friends who already play, GOOGLE bruh. a good in-game tutorial might slightly increase the general level of play but that doesn’t really actually matter unless there’s a bar saying “must be this good to pass” in the way of you playing the game. matchmaking is what will lift that bar.

Interesting, but I think it is somewhat more important to have such a mode for a fighting game. The main reason new players are going to quit the game is because they are losing too much. Also, there is something about losing in a fighting game that is really humiliating, it is mono e mono so you can’t really make excuses and it (typically) means that your opponent was just better than you (I’m aware that this is a generalization). Furthermore, in a fighting game not only do you have to grasp gameplay elements, but you also have to learn a significant amount of muscle memory (the main reason why I think fighting games will probably never compete with games like LoL/Madden/Etc). SF5 is definitely attempting to solve this problem, and I think they do a pretty good job, but having some sort of Mission/Tutorial mode would definitely help immensely.

[d3v]

This is slightly off-topic, but since everyone is mentioning League and teammates, it brought something back to my mind.

You want players to learn this game?
You want players to stay and feel engaged?

Why, the fuck, is there no team mode?

People love playing together, as a team, against other teams. Be it in some sort of tag-in style method or in the same method that Japan uses for a lot of it’s 3S tournaments. We need a mode like that. It would let others feel like they’re winning, even if they’re not doing too well. It also let’s them watch and learn when they’re not playing.

Also I want it…

Because the tournament standard is 1 on 1 versus.

[DevilJin_01]

This is slightly off-topic, but since everyone is mentioning League and teammates, it brought something back to my mind.

You want players to learn this game?
You want players to stay and feel engaged?

Why, the fuck, is there no team mode?

People love playing together, as a team, against other teams. Be it in some sort of tag-in style method or in the same method that Japan uses for a lot of it’s 3S tournaments. We need a mode like that. It would let others feel like they’re winning, even if they’re not doing too well. It also let’s them watch and learn when they’re not playing.

Also I want it…

Madden is somehow able to stay pretty relevant even though it’s one on one. That’s why I bring up Madden a lot because it’s the only casual competitive and hardcore competitive game that’s one on one.

[chatshire]

Interesting, but I think it is somewhat more important to have such a mode for a fighting game. The main reason new players are going to quit the game is because they are losing too much. Also, there is something about losing in a fighting game that is really humiliating, it is mono e mono so you can’t really make excuses and it (typically) means that your opponent was just better than you (I’m aware that this is a generalization). Furthermore, in a fighting game not only do you have to grasp gameplay elements, but you also have to learn a significant amount of muscle memory (the main reason why I think fighting games will probably never compete with games like LoL/Madden/Etc). SF5 is definitely attempting to solve this problem, and I think they do a pretty good job, but having some sort of Mission/Tutorial mode would definitely help immensely.

the “losing too much” thing is why matchmaking is so important…with a good system, you’ll naturally settle somewhere that you win as much as you lose. it doesn’t matter how bad you are as long as there are other people as bad as you…and there will be. the lack of such a thing is why these games have the reputation for being as soul destroying as they do. and from my time playing league, no, i don’t think the lack of a tutorial is somehow less relevant - it’s just that tutorials don’t help as much as you guys seem to think. the concepts actually involved in these games are way too complicated for a brief 30 minute little segment to actually teach you anything relevant beyond the most basic of mechanics. you aren’t going to learn in PvP games in any way besides actually PLAYING, so the most important thing for capcom to have done is to figure out how to make PLAYING enjoyable for new players. putting a lot of emphasis on matchmaking is their answer and i think probably the best one available.

[DevilJin_01]

Interesting, but I think it is somewhat more important to have such a mode for a fighting game. The main reason new players are going to quit the game is because they are losing too much. Also, there is something about losing in a fighting game that is really humiliating, it is mono e mono so you can’t really make excuses and it (typically) means that your opponent was just better than you (I’m aware that this is a generalization). Furthermore, in a fighting game not only do you have to grasp gameplay elements, but you also have to learn a significant amount of muscle memory (the main reason why I think fighting games will probably never compete with games like LoL/Madden/Etc). SF5 is definitely attempting to solve this problem, and I think they do a pretty good job, but having some sort of Mission/Tutorial mode would definitely help immensely.

the “losing too much” thing is why matchmaking is so important…with a good system, you’ll naturally settle somewhere that you win as much as you lose. it doesn’t matter how bad you are as long as there are other people as bad as you…and there will be. the lack of such a thing is why these games have the reputation for being as soul destroying as they do. and from my time playing league, no, i don’t think the lack of a tutorial is somehow less relevant - it’s just that tutorials don’t help as much as you guys seem to think. the concepts actually involved in these games are way too complicated for a brief 30 minute little segment to actually teach you anything relevant beyond the most basic of mechanics. you aren’t going to learn in PvP games in any way besides actually PLAYING, so the most important thing for capcom to have done is to figure out how to make PLAYING enjoyable for new players. putting a lot of emphasis on matchmaking is their answer and i think probably the best one available.

I think it’s truly a combination of everything.

1. Get people to play tutorials and trials where they go through the ins and outs of their character and deal with different situations against different characters that newer and intermediate players commonly have problems with.

2. Get people matchmade on the right level so they can win sometimes while losing enough to also learn a bit.

3. Get people on board with watching streams and having Combofriend take them to next level. Let them RISE UP to the occasion.

4. Give them something like CFN where they have their own community to chat in and level up from. Get them to learn that gettin gud isn’t about being alone, but playing with other people and watching and playing against some of the best.

5. Let people have access to regularly watch replays of top players and learn from them.

6. Throw in daily trials that ask players to do things that will help them brush up skills and learn the game. The money earned from this can go towards buying cool stuff.

[chatshire]

sure, all of those things are good to have, but i don’t think all of those things are equally important or even close. anyone with an internet connection can find a tutorial. but if you go through that tutorial, then try to apply the things you just learned in a match against a dude who knows everything you know, how to beat everything you know how to do, and how to beat all the things that beat all the things you know how to do, you aren’t going to have a good time. that has to be fixed before anything else is going to matter even a little bit.

[DevilJin_01]

sure, all of those things are good to have, but i don’t think all of those things are equally important or even close. anyone with an internet connection can find a tutorial. but if you go through that tutorial, then try to apply the things you just learned in a match against a dude who knows everything you know, how to beat everything you know how to do, and how to beat all the things that beat all the things you know how to do, you aren’t going to have a good time. that has to be fixed before anything else is going to matter even a little bit.

Well with matchmaking that should all work out alright.

What you’re talking about I think is only really relevant when a learning player who has done all of those above things fights veteran or pro player. If they are matched with the right people and add them to their friends list it should be something very gradual they can all better themselves with.

[Skiegh]

Because the tournament standard is 1 on 1 versus.

Here, yes. That doesn’t mean tournaments don’t exist that use that system, and it would only improve the robust nature of the online tournament scene of you could do such a thing without it being a bit of a cluster to do. The more variable ways we have to replicate things via the internet, the easier it’ll be for all tournament organizers, both off and on the internet.

I also find having a team to let down brings your desire to compete even higher, but that’s more of a personal thing.

Something for Capcom to put on it’s to-do list. Some people would live on modes like that for entertainment, so it’s not even just for the occasional fling. Good for friends, good for enemies.

Madden is somehow able to stay pretty relevant even though it’s one on one. That’s why I bring up Madden a lot because it’s the only casual competitive and hardcore competitive game that’s one on one.

True, but I think more menu options down the line is just something ripe for Capcom to add in at some point. It’s nice they have FT5 and FT10, so I think it only makes sense down the line they add in more things that have been used both casually and not. This also doesn’t really retract from the whole 1v1 thing, it’s just, if you lose, your teammate goes next. I also do think it’s just a great way to learn, and play with friends. (Did this for a very brief period in 3S on fightcade. Complicated mess, but it was fun regardless.)

[chatshire]

Well with matchmaking that should all work out alright.

What you’re talking about I think is only really relevant when a learning player who has done all of those above things fights veteran or pro player. If they are matched with the right people and add them to their friends list it should be something very gradual they can all better themselves with.

i agree, but that’s my point - i’m not concerned about the lack of tutorials or extra features whatsoever, as a matchmaking system should more or less solve the problem of fighting games being so inaccessible. if other stuff is missing, it can be accounted for by the community or the player himself. if matchmaking is fucked, like it has been in SF4, then new players are going to get fucked.

[Thancruz]

Tbh anyone who’s following this game closely should know by now what capcom is trying to sell you. This is pretty much what should’ve made sfxt successful on a casual level instead of being forced to pay for shit. I don’t mind the dailies to earn fm, don’t mind earning fm to get characters. Gives me a reason to play the game more unless it’s a character i want to pay for.