Never remember saying much about EX DR other than it was legitimately pretty stupid and meme worthy. S2 Galtu went around beating Momochi in rounds in Topanga literally with just EX DR. I remember Zeniside saying you could anti air and deal with EX DR in S2, but he was a Bison main so of course he would do that.
My point is generally that I don’t think Akuma’s c.HP is good enough to make a meme picture out of. It’s like making a meme picture out of Chun Li’s s.HP. It’s alright, but not that serious. Karin’s S2 s.MK was much more of a meme button but they nerfed that down.
If you use the button a lot you’re most likely not playing against good people. At higher skill levels you can’t use that button a lot.
Not to call him out, but I use it against highland… and I quote from him “50 times a round” and he’s like some form of diamond or something… iirc.
I’ve found it to work better versus good players than bad ones, but it’s matchup specific. I’d use it against rog way more than Cammy because rog has slower walkspeed and slower range. Versus Cammy I find the move not nearly so good as against say… sagat.
I’m just saying blanket labeling a move not good, that is pretty obviously good, is weird. It’s like saying fireballs are bad because people can jump them or Vegas walldive is bad is ST because you can AA it. No one is saying that cr.hp has no counters or that you can literally just throw it out with ZERO thought. But I see Akumas, even tokido, using it more and more. In fact with their opponent back to the corner they use it almost exclusively over st.hp… but that’s neither here nor there
Theoretically why would any character need to jump? In reality you get characters just flailing crush counters because SFV and Sagat doesn’t have a grounded meaningful answer that says cut it out without vmeter or full super. On top of all that you fight players where you can tell AA is their weakness. This being a fighting game and all I try to attack weakness. Sucks when I’m right but i get AAed by a waist high standing medium punch.
Also Sagat has been a tower since forever. Thats no reason for his jump ins to be worst in the game
Bruh that shit comes out in 10 frames. With Akuma’s walk speed and Sagat’s slow ass buttons I have to pray my cr.MP or my fireball doesn’t get CC’d. I’m too slow to dance around and whiff punish it.
Tokido doesn’t use it much at all unless it’s oki or like you said, push someone in the corner. In neutral it’s not used almost at all. In neutral it’s generally a redundant tool and not like the Urien’s s.HP’s and Bison HP’s that you see more often thrown around in a meme fashion.
I would imagine Highland has gotten a little better at the matchup where it wouldn’t matter whether you pressed c.HP 50 times or not. That’s definitely a matchup where you’ll get no reward pressing it 50 times in neutral vs a bunch of tiger shots with short hurt boxes and long ranged buttons.
Overall the button is rather redundant in his toolset and most of the top Asian Akumas usually opt for other buttons. Even in this match you have Jiewa blocking 10 tiger shots one round, finally gets a clear and opts for s.HP any way.
Akuma doesn’t have any grounded projectile bypass other than guess or perfection reaction HK tatsu and Sagat is pretty good at AAing his jump over stuff.
Yes? And this is exactky what I said. Slow buttons or slow walkspeed = cr.hp is decent. Slow walkspeed AND slow buttons = cr.hp is pretty amazing at enforcing respect.
@deviljin01
So… up is down and left is right?
I can use it, it’s good that’s literally all there is to it. Wanna try and wiff punish me then I can walk in and do it from even closer or walk in and do a medium. It’s literally a guess unless you hit me first or simply stay out of range. You stay out of range I walk you down, you wiff punish I walk in for free.
Versus falke? Idk. Never played her with akuma. Doesn’t seem like a matchup where I’d be using it with akuma though. Generally speaking I don’t like trying to beat sword normals with regular normals… call me crazy!
Even vs someone with slow buttons/speed like Cody, Tokido won’t use it much vs Cody. He doesn’t use c.HP much vs anyone really it seems so could also be combined with him assessing that the button is generally redundant to use in neutral at high level. Other buttons that do similar shit for faster start up.
Yeah I understand you can use it, but it’s like I’m saying. Being able to use it is different than it being some powerhouse button that needs a drawing done for it. There’s only a few buttons like that that still exist and stuff from other characters is a lot closer to it. If c.HP was as good as people meme it out to be Tokido probably wouldn’t ever lose events.
Oil King gets way more mileage out of running Rashid c.HP than any higher level Akuma gets out of c.HP at this point.
These are few of the complaints I’ve heard about him since people realized Sagat isn’t like his versions from 2X or SF4 Vanilla. I think he’s going to get buffs on his normals, maybe even on his walkspeed, but at this point I don’t understand why a character known for zoning and spacing also need jumpins like Ken or Necalli.
I can name characters who are swimming in the mediocrity sea more than Sagat did in SFV, if some of them have troubles at AAing why Sagat can’t have troubles at jumping?
Your entire argument is “tokido doesn’t use it” or the one other really high level akuma doesn’t use it. That’s not an argument. An argument would be showing that it’s actually demonstrably bad or not of use… or something to that effect.
Look at oil king. Uses rashid s cr.hp like it’s going out of business… like damn near all he uses. He wiffs that shit all day. He uses it waaay more than other rashids. That doesn’t mean the other rashids are doing it wrong or that oil king is, these are just different styles of play that are better or worse depending on what character you use and what your opponent likes to do. There are a couple of Cammy that I used to play against with Chun that I could st.hp against all day long. There was another Cammy that I coul,d barely use it against at all because she was never on the damn ground.
My argument is that it’s redundant to his toolset and not necessary in comparison to his other buttons. Which I think is pretty clear.
Most of the top Akumas and the one who uses Akuma most often demonstrating shows pretty clearly. If it really was that good they would need to use it more as well. They’re not just not using it because they want to be nice to their opponents.
Oil King probably uses c.HP more than the other Rashids, but even Gachikun uses c.HP more than any of the Asian Akumas use c.HP. It’s overall a more powerful, longer ranged button in neutral that is much harder to deal with and leads to bigger reward even without CC than Akuma’s c.HP. Akuma’s c.HP at best is a tool that he has, but is generally outclassed by his other tools at top level.
Sagat doesn’t really need much better jump ins IMO. Like most jump in buttons can get tagged by a standing button because the hurt boxes are huge on a lot of them, but there’s no way to make it consistent. Like they might get one or 2 Bison c.MP’s on your Sagat j.HK, but they can’t like go the entire round only using that to anti air you or they’re going to take a full jump in eventually. All of Falke’s jump ins have huge hurt boxes surrounding them also and knowing that I don’t go just raw jumping forward with a button on neutral opponents. Even if I can see your anti air reactions are poor I still don’t want to jump forward on a neutral/passive opponent as first option. I want to bait something with recovery so I don’t have to interact with the opponent’s mind or their hit boxes.
His normals are adequately ranged I think. Like when Sagat came out people were saying his normals felt stubby or no range. They have range, it’s just the hit boxes aren’t the best and they’re kinda slow. Faster makes sense, but they don’t really need to be much longer IMO.
He doesn’t need better recovery on tiger shots IMO. That’s scrub complaining for the most part I believe. The shots are as good or better than they were in IV, he just doesn’t have the tools for when they get past the shots that previous Sagats have had. The hurt box on his low shots are tough enough to hit as it is in a game where Ryu’s hadoken hurt box can be hit from anywhere in comparison.
Tiger knees need to be better for sure.
Tiger Uppercuts have some wonky interactions, but past fixing those things I think TU works.
It has a use that his other buttons don’t, that’s the reason for it’s use…
It has more range than st.mk and doesn’t require a “I need focus” 1 hit confirm. It has better ability to straight out beat certain moves, than st.mk.
It does more damage on CH, than st.hp… because it leads to a full combo.
St.hp is worse in that, it’s -5.
St.mk is also negative iirc. Cr.hp is PLUS… the plus isn’t great because the range that akuma will likely use it from in neutral is pretty far and tip spaced, but atleast akuma doesn’t suffer from his opponents pressure on block. It also does more white chip then st.mk.
But is it perfect? Nope. No one ever said it was. It specifically loses to crouching lows when they are tip spaced, and st.hp is better at dealing with those moves.
But it’s excellent against slow standing normals. Not FAST standing normals like Karin st.mk, slow standing normals. Bonus points if the character is also slow. It’s also good against slow startup move slow in general, like fireballs. But against most fireballs it has to be used pretty close or it wiffs against their startup animations.
Etc etc. it’s good if you know the strategy behind the move and are willing to apply the strategy. IF you or someone else doesn’t, that doesn’t mean the move is bad. There are good strategies I personally stay away from because I’m not the best with them, that doesn’t make the strategies bad.
Ideal balance for me would be to only slightly tone down top 5, kinda nerf v trigger universally, and to slightly buff everyone else, like 1-2 things tops.
Cept menat, having normals you cant whiff punish is such a shit design choice. Dont care how dumb it looks, i wanna be able to punch her derpy whiffed orbs even if it looks dumb
Luckily s.HP would be an easy button to fix. Just give it considerably more recovery so she can still fight neutral with it, but like Gief can j.MK abuse of it or other characters can actually make an attempt to whiff punish it with grounded specials or other air tools. She can be the unique I hit you with a disjointed weapon thing, they just need to work around it. That’s why she usually ends up losing to characters like Rashid or Ibuki in tournaments because they have a lot of threatening ground and air options vs her s.HP whereas characters like Sagat and Sakura don’t really.
The rest of her toolset I think is harder to fix or come up with a quick answer for minus making VT1 3 bars. It will be interesting to see how they tackle her. I think overall she will be the hardest character to correctly balance and adds to why I don’t really want to shoot too much on balance changes before we see what we’re getting. There’s always a 4.5 coming any way.
Sure, it’s just if you had to explain what c.HP loses to over other buttons then that adds to what I was bringing up to begin with. It’s not really the meme button people make it out to be or else it’d be used a lot more often. It’s definitely a solid button, but I’d say overall it’s not really a button he needs or can get away with braindead use of at the top levels. It does have its uses though.
Which is why I like when Tokido uses it because he doesn’t use it in a very meme fashion. When he does use it it’s pretty calculated and makes it so you can’t give him any crap for using it.
Sigh, it’s pretty meme. Not only because neutral but because:
Good in blockstrings
Longest ranged, highest damage non crouchable CH confirm he has.
Decent shimmy button because it is very fire and forget in the shimmy range. St.mk IS better if you can wiff punish throws on reaction or hit confirm the st.mk. But if not, cr.hp is pretty decent becaus with good timing you wither shimmy the opponent, or get them to block into white chip, or CC their button.
Longest range plus on block normal he has
Covers both wake ups on certain oki scenarios…
Is an ok anti air… which is pretty dumb, but it’s there.
Can also be used in neutral for amazing dividends, on top of everything else it has going for it.
Even if the button is outclassed in this or that specific department, the sheer “it can do everything” factor is pretty meme worthy.
Yeah it seems to be a button that can do one of what his other buttons can do, but not as well or with less reward. Which is why it’s super hard to find a top Asian Akuma that bothers with it much. It’s generally in neutral just a button to use if you don’t know how to use his other buttons. Otherwise you relegate to specific outside of neutral scenarios.
4 active frames is good for meaties, but most characters that are better at oki have a solid 4 frame active button like Karin.
Bad characters wish they had a button like Akuma’s c.HP, but within his toolset he can basically get away not using it for just as good or better reward.
