Late as fuck to all this discussion but home life has sucked so I’ve fallen into the rougelike hole rather than risk SFV when I’m already in a bit of a haze. Upside is that I basically cleared out Into the Breach and killed a lot of pasts in Enter the Gungeon. Downside is I miss command grabbing people. Gonna get back to it this weekend.
To the whole lab vs. practical application thing: this was a big sticking point for me. I’m not necessarily a lab monster but a lot of my development usually comes from solo practice then application (works that way for me with just about everything). That can be good to build a base but it ignores the actual practical side of things, usually very much to my detriment. The elements of spacing and timing matter as much as the actual frame data does as to when and how you can deal with something. A simple thing that more experienced players know but on the learning curve there definitely has been a transition from “here is how it works” to “here is how it actually plays out”, if that makes sense. The technical knowledge has value but not in a vacuum.
And there is the factor where you are playing against another person and sometimes one of you does goofy shit that throws the book learnin’ out the window. That is arguably the thing that keeps SFV alive for me. When you get a really good set of matches against another person it still hits those notes where each of you play off of each other and sometimes cool/funny stuff happens. However there are still a lot of matches that are the equivalent of two kids playing and one says “I shot you”, the other says “Nuh uh you missed I shot you”, and then it all devolves into flailing and tears. I know other games have that and in a lot of cases have it better (UNIEL matches as an example) but none that I like have the pick up and play aspect that SFV has with it’s player base (even if it loads slowly and has iffy connections…)
About grey damage and throws: I feel like grey damage came first because it seems like so many things are designed around it. I also think its why they are super cautious about some things like throws and follow up pressure. I originally thought grey life was a neat mechanic but as time has gone on I’ve cooled on it a lot. Not that I expect it to change or even necessarily want it to - it is what it is - but I’ll be fine with SFV being “the one with those fucking VTriggers, grey life, and the Reign of Queen Cammy”.
Imagine a Pokémon game. You’re playing Chunmon, a relatively strong electric type. Everyone else is playing Ground-types. You do learn a bunch of different Normal-type moves that are pretty good, but you can’t really count on your strengths because in this game everyone is immune to Electric. So while you dish out Normal moves, everyone else dishes out Ground moves which are way more effective against you. To make matters worse, you never evolve so your HP never increase beyond the meagre base stat and your Poké-Trigger deals less damage than everyone else’s.
Either way you need the grey damage to help make up for how the throws work. That’s why people get scared after Boxer or Bison has hit them with 13 mediums or heavies because that throw is going to hurt. Characters like Bison and Guile have meaty setups off of their backthrows also which lead to more stuff. Even Ryu his 150 damage 200 stun back throw is definitely a problem if he made you block some normals beforehand.
Online/twitter most of the rhetoric is that throws are still too strong any way so throws aren’t really going anywhere. People aren’t necessarily worried about the throws themselves, but with the game works the throws easily open up all of the damaging stuff in the game. Which is why people take the throws. Ken is one of those characters where you have to take the throw because if you do anything to avoid taking the throw you’re going into the corner and you are going to be very close to dying. You can’t do any real walk back stuff vs him because he has good c.LK and c.MK confirms to check you trying to back out of shit. His throw also pushes well into the corner and can combo off his overhead so you’re pretty much in a 33/33/33 once you hit the corner vs him. I feel safer when Akuma has me in the corner than Ken. People would stop playing this game if it had OG throw rules and Ken played the same.
With Sagat I notice Bonchan likes to back throw people just because it gives better space. With Sagat you want the space any way and the little teeny meaty he gets off forward throw while having the opponent within a threatening range of you isn’t really worth it. In older games Sagat had that big toss that threw you across the screen. Giving him a lot of real estate. They don’t want zoners to zone too much in this game so not gonna get that.
Falke luckily has forward and back throws that throw the opponent pretty far away from her. Forward throw pushes them back good distance while giving her a free f+HP meaty. If they hit buttons they get crush countered, if they try to jump or backdash they get hit. They have to use a special reversal to try and get out or hold the free white chip after blocking. Menat is pretty similar where her throws push them far away and leave them dealing with a meaty heavy button.
There’s a good group of characters able to do meaties after a throw anyway, Juri, Alex, Old Zeku and Bison are the firsts that comes to mind. They can’t use specific normals outside CC ones, but pressing buttons isn’t allowed if you take the throw. Like Jin said, characters like Bison and Balrog can monetize from grabbing fools after burying them with normals, not everyone is really aware of grey damage amount after that normals barrage.
Yeah if you’re a really old man the throws won’t do what YOU want them to do, but they clearly do what they need to do when considering white chip, frame traps, CC’s, counter hit combos and shimmies.
The way that throws work are Combofiend’s philosophy that started with XTekken and bled into V and MVCI. They are pretty honest in of themselves, but the things that threaten the throw or the things that happen if you get thrown under certain circumstances are scarier (throws removing red health in XTekken/MVCI)
I’ve been mulling over this idea for awhile- since Capcom has tried to design this game such that “every button has a use”, is it possible to figure out if each button has an optimal use in this footsie trinity?
Let me start with what I think Ken’s are and see if anybody else wants to jump in:
Optimal “Standing Buttons”:
Cr.HK
cr.MK
cr.MP
S.MP
All light attacks
(These are serviceable moves for this category. Cr.HK is exceptional because it can be buffered into v skill run for free oki or corner push. The light and mids are decently fast + cancellable = good stopping power if the opponent over extends, but vulnerable to fast and far range heavies, even though the opponent may be using them after a walk forward).
Optimal “walk forward buttons”:
Fireball
S.HK
(I think that this part of the Trinity is Ken’s weakest point. Ken just doesn’t have the buttons that are, by themselves alone, strong enough to generate ground pressure. The moves I listed are just serviceable enough to punish an opponent overly focused on whiff punishing. However to really enforce his offense, Ken needs to dash or jump.)
Optimal “Shimmy buttons”:
S.mk
(S.mk is an excellent whiff punisher because of its range and combobility. However, wiithout any good “walk forward” buttons, Ken can’t consistently pressure the opponent into pressing buttons to whiff punish. This sometimes forces Ken players to use s.mk as both a “walk forward” button and a “Shimmy Button”.)
Off the top of my head midscreen and some corner only, forward throw meaty characters. Microwalk mix-up throw available when cornered -
Akuma
Cody
Cammy
Sagat
Ken
Juri
Karin
Guile
Bison
Rashid
Sakura
characters like Ibuki, Blanka, Ken, Akuma etc. get backthrow oki scenarios when throwing into the corner, so backthrow oki is much more contextual.
List off the top of my head. Take into account there isn’t any riskless option to avoid a throw, and their damage outputs have been universally increased. I have no idea how anybody can think throws aren’t strong as is. That’s the main way to break through guards in this game, and pros have said throws are too good multiple times.
I will know for sure this week, depending on what MRI results show this wednesday, but it is not looking good.
That week I took off for it will probably be used as recovery time for the upcoming surgery.
Ah ok. If it’s going down like that for you probably best to take rest either way. Maybe I’ll still go and if you muster the strength to go then cool. Wish for speedy recovery if it’s as rough as it sounds
