I think as Highland mentioned too, it’s very easy to get too caught up in talking frames and shit rather than practical application.
I’m thinking of the Sagat VT2 example, or like Cody’s FF chain. The second hit is -4, but factoring in natural input delay and the fact that its very short blockstun, I’d eat my hat if anyone is actually going to punish it that often. But someone like Jibbo has to come in and go “WeLl teCHniCAly” and yuck.
That’s pretty similar to Ibuki’s second hit of her LP, MP, HP target chain. The second hit is punishable minus, but if you can somehow react to that second hit being blocked and punish everytime you either play against a shit ton of Ibukis all the time or don’t and are not going to punish that everytime. Being able to react to the visual recovery of that string is very tough even for experienced Ibuki people. The HP is actually safer despite also being punishable so if you’re afraid of them punishing the MP with something damaging might as well just take your light/medium punish by following through
The way you make V1 better is simple. I’ll type here what I wrote there. You either make it plus 2 on block giving him close shenanigans or you make the start up faster making it legitimately a plasma/poke beater.
Right now it starts up in 19. You’d need to lower that to around 12-13 to make it real respectable. Basically it makes it a bad ass tiger shot, which is what it’s supposed to be.
All minus moves are not created equal that’s the other problem. The animation plays a huge part, imagine if they made ibuki overhead -6 on block, shit would be unusable.
Nobody reacting to sagat swiping his leg out from half a screen. Id be interested ( not at the game) if anything “could” actually punish that from mid to max range outside of critical arts. I’d wager no.
Yeah I don’t understand why the shot isn’t plus on block. Falke’s VT1 stand shot is 14F start/plus 4 on block and gets 3 of them, whereas Sagat’s tiger cannon only has 2 shots for something you have to build 3 bars for. Sagat’s s.HP is already a button that requires his VT2 to be of any serious use and VT1 unfortunately prolongs that.
It would be fine the way it was it is if it was two bars or 3 shots even.
The sf5 team is really scared of a character being a strong with fireballs. Which is weird because…guile.
But I guess with the juggle properties of VT1, the ability to have it and another fireball on the screen… and confirms from farther away as well as “full screen” they felt it could be too strong potentially.
A lot of things about sagat I feel are done with a safety net and purposely made more difficult or impossible.
Even with all that said he’s a solid character just a bit too honest, but man it feels good to play actual “streetfighter” when you play him.
The SF5 team loves contradicting itself whenever given an opportunity. Same vein as the SF4 team, really.
We want a game that’s easy to get into.
Proceed to create C.Viper.
Generally with Capcom their statements only follow what the actual game entails to a base point. Just like how Ryu was supposed to be the character the game was based around in S1. In S2 and S3 nothing of that really shows anymore.
SFIV was so ridden with input priorities and windows to store inputs that there was no way the game was going to be easy executionally in the long run. Things that were meant to make the game initially easier to play allowed inputs to make 1 frame links they obviously didn’t intend to make viable, viable.
this is true for a lot of characters unfortunately. engineered to be just the right amount of inadequate
Yeah this is basically how Akuma’s c.HP actually works, but twitter/peanut gallery rhetoric makes it seem like more than it really is. This is one of those things where you can count on the mains of the character to give you a real assessment of the move. It’s not a sit on to win every round button and best use of it is pretty structured. Spamming it vs a top Sagat is just going to get you tiger shotted a lot since his hurt box doesn’t extend much and whiff punished if you abuse it at closer spots.
In the mirror Akuma is just playing whiff punish and counter poke his own shit, so c.HP being one of the easiest things for Akuma to whiff punish on his own self makes things a liability in the mirror. No Akuma bashing c.HP in a mirror vs another competent Akuma is going to come out on top. You’re basically giving the Akuma the easiest thing they can deal with in the mirror a regular incentive to punish.
Every top Akuma clearly uses s.HP, c.MP, s.MK and c.MK way more than c.HP. If you’re doing the same at lower levels you’re already helping yourself get a jump on how to actually play Akuma.
Momochi is streaming Cody at the moment
Yeah it’s very strange. Because I’d even argue Menat is worse than guile in the decisions department.
Imo you should have a really good base character and a “decent” trigger - Karin, Cammy etc
Or you should have an iffy base character and a powerful trigger - Cody, Blanka etc
There shouldn’t be Amazing at everything and can kill you with my trigger, nor should there be my character kinda sucks and this thing does sweet fuck all - Ryu, Vega etc
Sagat is actually very balanced. Id argue it’s the imbalance of the game that makes him unbalanced. Not his actual tool set.
But SF5 has high damage they said.
Sometimes I forget that Menat’s VT1 is only two bars. Two bars for that trigger is insane. Definitely the best two bar in the game and it’s not like she desperately needs trigger to win.
Oh and her VT2 is also really fucking good too.
Menat’s VT1 not touching S4/arcade cab AE without becoming 3 bars or getting timer reduced, or both
I think whoever does a streaming does it 10% for the scene and 90% for his ego, that’s it. Jibbo’s stream is useful when you aren’t that good with >insert character<, but it’s there also for the lazy ones and he don’t tell always the full story. I’m remember him complaining against Zeku players who used the Young form vs Sagat saying they did that because they can’t play neutral in Old Form. Yeah,right…
Young form is way better against Sagat. I play a dude that gets super frustrated at my zoning and I’m like just play young dude, why even bother.
I mean old dude is good to set the pace and if you want to build a little meter, but if you’re rocking old Zeku vs Sagat it’s a cake walk for me.
Yeah shit like that is just awful. There are characters that scum their way in more stupidly than Y.Zeku anyways. All of Y.Zeku’s stuff to move in around zoners is either mad unsafe on block or leaves him generally negative. It’s arguable that O.Zeku has safer/more threatening anti projectile stuff, he just obviously doesn’t have the run or walk speed of Y.Zeku. It’s not Zeku players’ fault that O.Zeku is mad situational/not as good for winning matches as Y.Zeku. Besides 3S players know about characters that ram their face into victory and only a couple characters can do anything that is comparable to old fireball zone (Akuma air fireball/Remy vs certain characters).
I don’t mind Falke vs Y.Zeku because although you’re going to have to slow down your zone, if I do block something I know I’m getting a punish or he’s losing momentum. Not like Boxer/Bipson/Urien where if they force you to block anything that they do you gotta wait out the party.
In general I think it’s stupid for people shame you for doing what you need to do to win. Y.Zeku has better forward moving shit/walk speed for getting in on zoning, let people use it and stop shaming people for doing what they need to do to win matches. Especially when other characters can do it with less work than Y.Zeku.
Yes Sagat is honest and will have niggas get on him. That’s your fault for playing fair ass Sagat. Deal with that shit. You can play Guile or Menat if you want to use a zoner that gives Y.Zeku problems, but then you’ll be afraid of being shamed for playing one of the characters that does too much blah blah
I’m all for positivity , I should know I stuck with and made a channel with one of the worst characters in the game.
You’ve got to be realistic though. Finding realistic solutions is better than “Ryus V1 is awesome, check this shit out”
I sometimes think that of the other dude that sets up the whiff punish videos. I’m quietly saying to myself - dude, nobody is hitting that combo without pure luck at the midrange…
I definitely think that goes hand-in-hand with that rigid approach I talked about earlier. Jibbo’s made it clear that he values dominating “the neutral” (whatever that happens to mean that day) over winning the match. I believe he said he prefers G’s VT2 because “VT1 lets people do stuff without winning neutral, I don’t like that.”
Granted it’s his opinion and he’s not setting out to be a top player, but I do think that line of thinking gets repeated and, while he may not intend to do it, makes people think that these stronger tools are crutches that hold you back instead of the keys to victory. And if you’re just starting out, I think it’s weird to emphasize that so-and-so tool is for baddies who don’t know what they’re doing when it’s clearly just a good tool.
To be fair, sometimes tools that just skip neutral can be crutches that give bad habits in the long run, and it can be very valuable to learn how to win without them. Not using them is at all, even in a competitive situation, is a bad idea though. Especially when this game is notorious for not being about neutral control in the first place.