SFV Character Request/Anticipation Thread

DevilJin_01 · August 22, 2015, 4:36am

I will be the hope crusher that foretells an apocalyptic launch with only SF2 and Alpha characters. Just wait, Blanka is getting revealed soon.

Eternal · August 22, 2015, 4:52am

R-D:

Eternal:

If you disagree with my saying my view is that health is the least effective form of balance I can’t even debate this. You are saying you disagree with me even having a view. That’s like saying “I disagree with you believing you even have an opinion.”

My issue is with the details. You might make it sound like you’re saying more than you are. If you want to say health balancing is ineffective, that’s fine, and that’s what I’ve actually been replying to. But if you want to say it’s the “least effective” form of balance, my first response is “Compared to what, exactly?”

My second response is that it’s a matter of degree, like every other possible way you can balance something. There is no such thing as “least effective.”

Although, off the top of my head, I would say that 50 health makes more of a consistent difference than 50 stun, so that already rules that out.

Eternal:

Akuma is designed around good options, a large variety of effective tools but low health. Of course you could make him dan tier by making his moves worse. That’s a dumb thing to say. I specifically said that glass cannon archetypes either end up top tier or bottom tier because either they are low health AND have shitty tools or they are low health with tools good enough to easily offset the health deficit.

Or they could be Chipp. I suggested looking at his history for a reason, as a primary counter-example, because he’s usually around mid-tier, and has a lot of balance data available across different versions compared to most characters in his archetype.

Again, I feel like when people say “good tools” they’re really just saying the character is good. Those are different things. I’d say Cammy is still really strong, but she doesn’t have tools as objectively good in a vacuum as some characters worse than her. And you could say this about any archetype. It’s not exclusive to glass cannons. Look at the reasons why the character is good or bad in the particular game. Rufus has good tools AND high health, but he has weaknesses. I don’t want to retype that entire post, so I’ll hold off there.

The point is that these characters, Akuma included, are not going to be inherently restricted to top or bottom just because of their moveset. And Akuma may have to play at close range eventually like every other character in SF4, but he is still incurring more risk in doing so than a Ryu would be.

E.Ryu is actually a pretty good example here, looking at the “why.” Thanks to the true blockstring on hadoken, he no longer has to incur as much risk to access damage, and along with oki becoming weaker, the current version of his game is much more welcoming to him.

Eternal:

Seth’s Damage is low?

Yes, those numbers are far from the high end of damage. I’m not a Seth player, and I didn’t know the numbers on his combos, but I know his single hits, SPD, metered options are relatively low in damage, and ultra is not easy to tack on to a combo outside of punishes, especially with the ways Seth normally lands hits. Since I know Juri’s damage numbers by heart, I think I have a decent frame of reference for that, and from her I know it’s not a good idea to count on cornered damage or special circumstances. Even the Cammy numbers I also know are on the low end now in Ultra, damage-wise. Maybe my opinion would be different if I had a different character choice, played a more defensive battle against Seth, and was cornered more often.

Eternal:

You change frame data on moves you’re going to make a more drastic shift in a characters options than if you up their health by 5%. Which sounds stronger? Rufus with a 3F crLK and 1k health or Rufus as is with 1050 health? That 1F change is going to drastically change matchups way more than that bonus 50 health.

Most people felt Makoto’s health loss didn’t really matter in AE2012, it sucked but they didn’t really care. Nobody really felt anything when Evil Ryu went from 950 to 900 in 1.04, he is still the best character in USF4. Guile players bitched a tiny bit then moved on when he dropped to 950 health, most felt that the sonic boom counterhit state 1~20F was a much bigger issue. High level poison players barely made a peep over the 50 health loss she got in 1.04.

Seth players I talked to thought “That’s pretty nice but not game changing” when Seth got bumped up to 850, however the change to his crossup HK was a big deal.

Like I said, health balance is non-intrusive. People don’t see it as a big deal, or feel the difference when they play. But 50 health is a 5% buff (assuming average health, but usually better) to the damage of every move the opponent has. It probably makes more difference than most people give it credit for. I’m reminded of the Chun ultras that kill where they previously wouldn’t, or the Makoto ultras that don’t kill where they previously would.

It’s a matter of degree, too. If you’re talking about frame data, nerf Cammy’s health by 50 and it would make more difference than 1 less frame of hit advantage on cr.HP, which only mattered for certain character-specific combos, aside from further reducing the fun of the character.

Let me leave at this

Health balancing is less effective than modifying any tools that actually matter to a characters options. You can reduce a characters taunt by 1F it wont matter because that isn’t actual balancing. Adjusting tools a character actually can and does utilize in meaningful ways via changing frame data, move properties, or damage values will usually end up being much more effective. By Least effective I mean least effective of ways to change a character in any way that is meaningful to the characters overall abilities.

As I said, we will agree to disagree. Do the same as I did and say your final piece on this after I’ve posted, I’m done and moving on because we’ve completely derailed the thread, the discussion was fun though.

PVL_93_RU · August 22, 2015, 4:53am

LI Joe said yesterday that according to his info, SF5 is getting 4 returning characters, two of which will be from Third Strike. Maybe not all hope is yet lost

melflomil · August 22, 2015, 5:17am

Any specific names?

Daemos · August 22, 2015, 5:18am

BUT WHAT ABOUT THE COLOR CODED BOXES?!!? WHAT DOES IT ALL MEEEEAAAANNN?!!!

Eternal · August 22, 2015, 5:22am

Hmmm… I’m thinking 1 Alpha 1 SF4 at this point. I don’t think any more SF2 chars.

FengShuiEnergy · August 22, 2015, 5:23am

That’s a good guess. But I can’t shake the feeling Balrog will be in. Either him or Dudley for a boxer type character.

Wikum · August 22, 2015, 5:24am

he said he thinks it’s alex and urien. i tend to agree but part of me thinks necalli means alex has to wait a little while,

Muttonman · August 22, 2015, 5:24am

He probably has the same source that Silicorama had then

Mangy_Cat · August 22, 2015, 6:06am

I don’t think Capcom was the one who revealed the color coded boxes. Wasn’t it one of the posters or somebody else who made it?

Plaid_Unicorn · August 22, 2015, 6:08am

Naw it was capcom at evo I believe, during the long panel where they discussed ryu being the mold ect ect

Daemos · August 22, 2015, 6:10am

Yup, it was part of their presentation.

Either they are trolling us or those boxes mean what they mean.

MilesRiey · August 22, 2015, 6:56am

I have this suspicion that the Siliconera rumor could be a little misleading… like the source said those 4 characters are in the game, but that could still mean they are DLC? Like imagine the amount of money they would make by releasing Urien, Alex, Karin and R.Mika as DLC even with the fight money thing in mind.

Not all of them but only some a couple I guess. And of course this only applies if the rumor is true (which I’m doubting it is ever since Vega was revealed).

Plaid_Unicorn · August 22, 2015, 7:00am

It really is pretty crazy there aren’t more (any really) legit leaks. You usually can’t keep secrets in games anymore.

JokeeBoi · August 22, 2015, 7:05am

I’m still pretty curious as to what the schedule’s gonna look like for the DLC characters. If I had to guess I’d say one character released every 3 maybe even 4 months. Just to give people enough time to unlock the characters with fight money, and also just so people can get used to the character.

ES_Curse · August 22, 2015, 8:11am

Estimated SF2/Alpha only roster:

Spoiler

-Ryu
-Chun
-Bison
-Cammy
-Ken
-Vega
-Boxer
-Sagat
-Nash
-Birdie
-Sakura
-Rose
-Necalli
-NEW
-NEW
-NEW

This is my guess IF it turns out to be all SF2/Alpha characters. I honestly think we’re going to see some 3S characters and Juri.

Segatic · August 22, 2015, 8:15am

Everytime someone mention Juri just makes me think decapre will be announced

FengShuiEnergy · August 22, 2015, 8:22am

Tell you what. You ask for Urien and I ask for Juri. Everyone wins then.

Citrus_monkey · August 22, 2015, 8:34am

At this point I’ve almost forgotten about the characters I’m hyped about because I live in fear of Ingrid making it in. Fuck ingrid. Fuck her stupid ass ballet and schoolgirl fetish supporter base.

FengShuiEnergy · August 22, 2015, 8:36am

What was one of her specials called? SUN SHOT!!! But really, Ingrid? I HIGHLY doubt she would ever make it in…let alone make it back into the series. You’re safe Citrus…Ingrid isn’t coming back.