SFV Character Request/Anticipation Thread

What I’m trying to say here is that you’re looking at the results and not the reasons for those results.

But before I get into that, you’re not just saying that health is the least effective form of balance. You also said that you’d prefer if they made everyone equal health, which I’ve mentioned would remove character archetypes from a game. That’s my primary objection.

In any case, maybe I’m assuming things, but I doubt you’ve made an exhaustive list of the methods designers use to balance characters in fighting games, and determined that variable health was the least effective of those. It sounds more like hyperbole.

Remember that designers are humans with a lot of goals for a game. The #1 goal is not top-level balance. This is a fact, and has been for the majority of developers of competitive games going back as long as you like. There will be exceptions, but not usually in the games that come first to people’s mind when they think of competitive gaming.

It’s extremely easy to see in Capcom games. You cannot possibly look at the Marvel 3 cast, and the UMvC3 changes, and tell me to my virtual face that Capcom did not intend for Magneto to be good and Hsien-ko to be bad. Who were the characters that got hotfixes? Sentinel, the Day 1 newbie-crusher, and Phoenix Wright, which is something I could point to if I wanted to summarize this entire post in one patch note.

In your own lists you named a fair amount of top tier characters who had average health or even above-average health. What you might notice is that, even then, you didn’t name any grapplers. Which leads you to the real reason why high-health characters are usually bad. It’s not because health is a useless asset. It’s because designers are afraid of making a game where grapplers are top tier. That’s pretty much the worst-case outcome.

How grapplers are feared:

[details=Spoiler]Imagine what “grappler syndrome” in SF games would be like if the grappler was actually #1 in the game. How deeply would that character dominate the beginner-to-intermediate scene? To a grappler main, or a player who wants to be a top tournament player, that might not matter, but it absolutely matters to a developer. It’s not just that, either. The designers know what makes the grappler archetype tick, and that knowledge makes them nervous for their high-level game if the grappler turns out to be good.

Why DOES a grappler have high health? The primary reason is because command throw mixup is inherently risky, and in order to make the grappler comfortable with those risks, they need something to tip the risk/reward in their favor. For an example of what it looks like when this risk/reward breaks down, look at any of Abel’s bad matchups. It also helps them get through keepaway tactics, and this is what most people point to as the reason for high health, but that’s a secondary benefit and an optional side effect of their design. Makoto has just as much trouble with keepaway, and doesn’t get any of that health buffer.

If a risk-heavy character like that is top tier in a game (any game, not just fighters), it tends to set off a warning flag in a designer’s head that something is wrong with the game. Tournament players are supposed to favor safe characters! You might disagree with their opinion, but the effects of that mindset are apparent in the way that these games are balanced. There have been designers that have said this outright.

It’s not hard at all to make any character good, even a grappler. Look at grapplers in early USF4. How long did it take for that to get changed? In Arcsys games, Potemkin has been good before, and Tager was top tier in a recent version after being utter bottom of the barrel for the majority of the game’s life. If you want to know why it doesn’t happen with more regularity, why not go with the simple explanation: designers are REALLY hesitant to overtune them.[/details]

There’s no such fear with Sagat, whose history In SF has been almost as decorated as Akuma’s, despite being a high-health character. He is a “safe” character who “should” be popular in tournaments from a designer’s view. Rufus was never far from strong in any version of SF4. In Vanilla SFxT, the strongest characters were mostly average or above-average health. If you’re willing to go further out into designers who might not be so scared of grapplers, you’ll probably find a wider array of health values. For example, the UNIEL top tiers are mostly above-average health.

Akuma is always strong because he is tuned with velvet gloves, not because his tools ensure that he can’t be bad. I assure you, it would be easy enough to turn Akuma into Dan with just some tweaks on hitboxes, startup and recovery times. But in reality, the designers make sure he is good. When Akuma’s teleport wasn’t working to protect him from setplay, they gave him U2. When U2 wasn’t good enough, they made it better. Then look at all the other characters who waited for years before getting anything to fix their weaknesses, if they got it at all.

So I don’t recommend taking any lessons about the effectiveness of any balance procedure from Akuma’s performance. That’s entirely the human touch at work. I’d speak similarly to the people who argue that Ono was lying when he said AE was intentionally unbalanced for the arcades - I’d wonder if you’d seen AE’s patchnotes, and then point at Phoenix Wright again for good measure.

About why variable health exists:

[details=Spoiler]For a counter-example that might be worth looking at, I’d suggest researching Chipp’s performance in GG. That’s a character who would need to change completely if he didn’t have paper-tier health, but against people who are familiar with the character, he isn’t inherently dominant, despite having lots of “tools” to help him avoid getting hit.

Compare him with Seth in SF4. They have similar traits: neither of them want to be trading hits with you at mid-range. They would prefer to never block if they could help it. They have tracking teleports and multiple mixup tools and a shoryuken for desperate measures.

So what’s the difference in the way these characters are tuned? Well, Seth is a boss character, and Chipp is not. He is supposed to be strong. Yes, there are other differences. The weakness in Seth’s offense is that his damage is low, while Chipp’s weakness is positioning - he doesn’t really get going until he has you in the corner. In a game like SF4, you could say that low damage is not much of a weakness. But it would be extremely easy to make either of those characters terrible.

I’d say that, on the whole, low health can be something that keeps a character out of top tier almost as often as high health. How many characters have you seen where people say they’re good if you play perfect, but no one actually does? I would have a suspicion that boosting Juri to average health would be a tremendously effective balance change.

Which brings me to the ultimate point: variable health is primarily a design tool that molds a character’s playstyle. Yes, there are times where you will see a character’s health adjusted, and then it becomes a balancing tool. It can even be an effective one, if you let it. But that’s not why it exists.

The whole idea of “better tools” is lazy thinking. Does Rufus have higher health because his “tools” are worse than other characters? Far from it. Early on, EX messiah was described as the best reversal in the game. He has the best divekick in the game especially from AE onward, and he has a safe special move for pressure purposes. Cammy has less health than Rufus, and she has “a lot of tools,” but are they better? I would not say so. She has no safe specials, no overhead, weak range on throw and focus, her crossup is relatively awful, her ultra is hard to combo into, and even her divekick is not very good anymore without meter. The only truly great move she has left is her DP. The reason she’s always been strong is because of the way her moves work together, the way she fits into the metagame of SF4, and because she doesn’t have any glaring weaknesses in her character for an opponent to abuse.

Rufus has high health because it allows the designers to change the way he plays and the way opponents play against him. He is weak on defense without meter, so he has moments of vulnerability, especially in the first round. If he manages to take the advantage here, he can afford to take risks without great fear of punishment, but if the opponent properly capitalizes, he doesn’t instantly lose. In a game that had universal health, a meter dependency like that would be a major handicap for the character and probably have to be removed or overhauled.

None of that falls in with your statement about tools vs. health, or getting hit vs. not getting hit. It’s about creating variety in the types of characters available in the game.

Similarly, characters are given low health because the designers want to create incentives for certain types of play. They don’t want Akuma to make a habit of doing close-range frametraps with low jabs and strongs like Ryu does, even though technically he is capable of it, because Akuma will suffer more from guessing wrong and/or eating a reversal from the defender. In order to include a character with strong keepaway, like you might get from a teleport and air fireballs, it’s important to ensure that a clean combo on that character will put you at a life lead, even if you’ve both landed one, forcing them to close the gap.
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In a game with universal health, unless you’re willing to accept homogenization of the characters thanks to equalized risk/reward, you’d have to manually cripple the options you don’t want the character to use very often. Like any nerf-heavy approach to design, this doesn’t feel very good, and will probably slow down the pace of the game. Rather than saying health is an ineffective means of balance, I’d say it’s a non-intrusive one: the character still feels like the character, only your priorities change when health changes.

If you look at history, are there more top tiers with low health than high? Undoubtedly, but as I’ve been saying, I believe this is for human reasons and not systemic ones. The best examples are found in more obscure fighting games, as well as old fighters made before designer biases set in. I doubt you will find much correlation between health and tiers in those games, aside from cases where huge big-body hitboxes were abused, which is a separate and real problem.

What does this huge post have to do with SF5? Probably not a lot in the scheme of things, because variable health is there to stay, but I did my best to keep it small with spoilers. As far as Akuma is concerned, I’d have to be blind not to expect him in the game, and I’d also not expect him to be the same as he was in past games.

If I had to take a shot in the dark for how SF5 Akuma could be made unique:

[details=Spoiler]Actually do the thing the other guy said about making supers into regular moves, to some extent. He could have a fierce that’s the initial punch of KKZ. Unsafe, but pops up on hit, more on counterhit. Similarly, play with his tatsus like they did for Ken. Make EX tatsus work like 3S SA3/Gouken’s tatsus, maybe. VT can be Misogi, with some horizontal control but closer to Oni’s version than a full screen super, and no invincibility.

Akuma had a roll in the alpha series. Since Ken didn’t get his, you could bring it back for Akuma, possibly as a quick teleport without the full invincibility - same effect, more Akuma flavor. Regular teleports would be only accessible as V-Reversals. Keep the air fireballs and demon flip (v-skill), since they will be less oppressive in a game with SF5’s wakeup options. Only demon palm and slide build v-gauge. Make sure that the air fireball doesn’t trade if you hit him as he’s firing it.

s.HK could be SF4 HK, b+HK could be like E.Ryu’s axe kick, s.MK would angle downward (more alpha Akuma). Since you mentioned you don’t like his overhead chop, despite it being a little different, there’s also a f+MK there if you want it, or you could just give him UOH.

Give him cancelable medium normals that aren’t as good for linking as the other shotos. His offense would be primarily 2-in-1s with different specials, so his best confirms would be from b+HK, punishes, demon flip, and air fireballs.

In total, I think all that would make him play considerably different from Ryu, while distinctly himself. And that’s off the top of my head, so it’s not really a serious suggestion, just saying I don’t think it’s hard to have a version of Akuma that’s clearly not “Ryu + new moves,” and he’s going to be there whether we want it or not.[/details]

But what happened to “I before E except after C”? THEY FUCKING LIED TO ME!!! :scream:

I like your thinking but I think he needs to lose some of his Ryu moves. To satisfy de-shotofication Akuma needs to go through the following IMHO:

  • Gain completely new and different normals, command normals, to Ryu and Ken, as meant to reflect his 25+ years of solo training since he left Goutetsu.
  • Keeps fireball and air fireball. Possibly adopts some of Omega Oni’s fireball/ex fireball tricks to differentiate him even further from Ryu and Ken.
  • Has his own variation of tatsu that looks and plays differently to Ken and Ryu’s (See: Gouken).
  • Keeps Demon Flip
  • Keeps Demon Slash
  • Keeps Demon Palm
  • Keeps Ashura Senkuu (V Reversal?)
  • Raging Demon is his CA, can be done in air like Oni.
  • Other possible candidates for CAs are Misogi, All Super Fireballs (Like Oni), Kongou Kokuretsu Zan, or something new - Everything else is in violation of the deshotofication process.
  • He should look like this now but without the armor and the burnt Bison corpse (note the similarity between the 3D model and SFV’s action figure looking models).
  • No more Shoryuken or any variation of this attack. We know he can do it, but we also know he can destroy a submarine with a punch, doesn’t mean he should it during gameplay.
  • No more red fireballs or electric fireballs. Ken and Ryu have shotgunned those respectively. Only Akuma fireballs henceforth.
  • No more sharing of models, or animations whatsoever.
  • Again, NO SHARED NORMALS! I’m not talking about frames and hitboxes, I am talking visually, they should look and move NOTHING alike.
  • No Oni Airdashes, too anime.
  • No more burning hair or peeling skin. *Ever. *

I always thought high/low health was meant to balance large/small hurtboxes.

Which is why post-patch Sentinel makes me scratch my head. For all the shit that can be done on him, why is his health so low? Maybe if he was actually faster and had more evasive options, I would accept it, but it feels like they wanted to balance around making him an assist character so they reduced his health to make getting tagged more severe and “buffed” his assist to be a non-blocksting as “compensation”.

I guess this does tie back into determining play style, though. You don’t see very many gigantic zoners who stay safe (Sagat being the prime example) but you see a ton of small rushdown characters. (Cammy, Ibuki, Yun/Yang, Decapre)

It’s funny how I actually had similar ideas a while back (though can’t pinpoint the post, the search seems to be broken at the moment, only gives 10 results and nothing else)

Edit: found it - SFV Character Request/Anticipation Thread

I’d like to see Hakan come back. I had very little interest in Street Fighter’s Greatest Hits, errr - Street Fighter 4 until they added Hakan to the game.

Mainly because I’m not skilled enough to use him in SF4, and honestly - I’m playing a grappler. I shouldn’t be fighting silly design decisions on top of trying to not get zoned for free. :#

One word disagrees with the entire concept of homogenization requirements and the idea you need health variation to create good archetypes:

Skullgirls.

Akuma is designed around good options, a large variety of effective tools but low health. Of course you could make him dan tier by making his moves worse. That’s a dumb thing to say. I specifically said that glass cannon archetypes either end up top tier or bottom tier because either they are low health AND have shitty tools or they are low health with tools good enough to easily offset the health deficit.

Have you looked at USF4 Akuma? He is very effective with close range frame traps despite his health, he gets some of the most damage off of them and good positioning while also having the ability to play a zoning game if he chooses to. Close range frame traps is actually currently considered his best way to be played.

Seth’s Damage is low? have you actually played him or seen him played recently?

(start ~mid stage it still carries to corner) - crMP - clsHP - EX DP (all hits) - EX Tanden - clsMP - clsHP - HK Spin Kick) = 430 damage (corner followup = 453 damage)
Tanden - clsMP - clsHP - HK Spin Kicks = 305 damage (400 in the corner with stomps)
crMP - clsHP - HK spin kick = 280 damage (375 in the corner with stomps)
crMP - crMP - MK Spin kick = 224 (319 in corner)
crLK - crLP - crMP - mk spin kick = 181 damage (258 in the corner)
crLK - crLP - sLP - crMK - HP Sonic Boom - EX FADC - clsHP - HK Spin Kick = 250 damage (281 with follow up)
(corner) crLK - crLP - sLP - crMK - HP Sonic Boom - EX FADC - clsMP - clsHP - HK Spin Kick = 269 damage (292 with follow up)
crHP - LP SRK - Stomps = 282 damage mid screen

vs some chars he can do tanden or jump in - crMP - clsMP - crMP for even more damaging combos.

Most of these combos do ~400ish stun, some as high as 600.

He has some of the best meterless corner damage in the game and average to above average mid screen on confirmable hits. He also has the best combo extender with EX Tanden and among the best corner carry with spin kicks.

You change frame data on moves you’re going to make a more drastic shift in a characters options than if you up their health by 5%. Which sounds stronger? Rufus with a 3F crLK and 1k health or Rufus as is with 1050 health? That 1F change is going to drastically change matchups way more than that bonus 50 health.

Most people felt Makoto’s health loss didn’t really matter in AE2012, it sucked but they didn’t really care. Nobody really felt anything when Evil Ryu went from 950 to 900 in 1.04, he is still the best character in USF4. Guile players bitched a tiny bit then moved on when he dropped to 950 health, most felt that the sonic boom counterhit state 1~20F was a much bigger issue. High level poison players barely made a peep over the 50 health loss she got in 1.04.

Seth players I talked to thought “That’s pretty nice but not game changing” when Seth got bumped up to 850, however the change to his crossup HK was a big deal.

If you disagree with my saying my view is that health is the least effective form of balance I can’t even debate this. You are saying you disagree with me even having a view. That’s like saying “I disagree with you believing you even have an opinion.”

At this point we’ll have to agree to disagree.

I believe some of those premises for keeping grapplers bottom tier are flawed:

The idea that top tier grapplers are going to dominate low and intermediate level circles may be tempting, but AFAIK it has never been proved right in the real world: anyone here knows of scenes that were opressed by characters like SFA3 Gief, GGAC Potemkin or good Tager? Or even forums filled with the same rage that characters like AE 2012 Cammy or Vanilla Sagat caused? My guess is that zoners are actually more oppressive when they are good and more hated by players. Also, grapplers tend to be harder to pick up and master for anyone to start wrecking face with them:it is difficult to judge whether grapplers are hard to play due to intrinsic issues or just because of historic bottom tier level, but for example, strict 360 and 720 inputs put off a lot of potential players compared with a zoner which at low levels may simply require performing the same quarter circle motion several times in a row. The big size tend to require better dominion of space and the slow part means you can’t yolo approach the opponent and hope he doesn’t has time to react.

The logic for balancing by high health doesn’t hold after damage output and followups are taken into account. The assumption is that on the long run, the damage made by the grappler evens out the damage lost but never happens. Let’s put a 1200 HP grappler vs a low health overbuffed 850 HP character: even if you could get a grab for every two times the opponent hits you, they can be easily making 300 - 400 combo damage in each one of their combos and the knockdown allows them to prepare a following setup. Meanwhile, each one of your grabs do mere 200 damage and even then the characters get separated like equal pole magnets after the grab meaning you’re back at neutral again. You can change that for a 100 damage projectile or godly poke but now the opponent can easily connect like 5 of those or more for each time you can grab them: the logic remains the same.

What if a high risk character like a grappler becomes good? Unlike, say, unreliable turn 1 Magic combo decks, those risk and rewards are fully dictated by skill and not by randomness and watching a good grappler player circunvent his opponent’s defenses and get close is rather hype. Nothing that should make anyone think something is wrong with the game.

My guess of why is that just like shortsighted players hate getting antiaired consistently, those players also HATE the idea of eating full damage even when they are blocking (especially when they are blocking). A lot of players have ingrained the idea that downback should always mean safety or low risk and command grabs completely gets them out of their confort zone and way of thinking. Sadly, designers have taken the approach of “better telling them what they want to hear than teaching them how to play” and nerf command grabs anytime they can, a perfect example being the sucky by design 0+1 Ultra command grabs of Ibuki, Poison and others. If designers actually think this way, they should admit it, cut grapplers completely from the game because characters made bad on purpose are a waste of everyone’s time and abandon these meme of “good grapplers = miserable game”.

Skullgirls doesn’t have those archetypes, though. Character variety has been one of its primary issues as a game, although it has gotten better with the DLC characters. This could be its own wall of text, but for starters, who do you think qualifies as the “Chipp”?

Even disregarding that, because I’m sure you’ll take issue with that statement, it’s not a game that’s balanced for 1 character vs. 1 character. Although Peacock’s gameplan is a bit different from most of the other characters, her design notably breaks down when she is forced to be solo. And of course you have to account for the differences between a chain-heavy game and Street Fighter. For example there’s no point in even talking about a “rekka” character in a game with chains, so you get a free pass on that one.

I look at fighter of the wind right now on you tube for ideas on how to change up Akuma while keeping his fighting style intact. so for Akuma I say give him pressure point take downs, bone breaking and joint dislocating techniques.

example

throw 1: Sumi Otoshi

throw 2: Uki Otoshi

normals

Morote tsuki / two handed punch ( hard punch)

Tetsui / hammer fist ( light punch)

Shuto yoko ganmen uchi / knife-hand strike to head ( medium punch)

Ippon nukite / one finger spear ( command normal)

Kansetsu Geri / joint kick ( light kick)

Oroshi uchi kakato geri / (downwards inside heel kick ( medium Kick)

Mae keage / front stretch kick ( hard kick)

fighting stance Fudō-dachi ( unshakable stance)

My issue is with the details. You might make it sound like you’re saying more than you are. If you want to say health balancing is ineffective, that’s fine, and that’s what I’ve actually been replying to. But if you want to say it’s the “least effective” form of balance, my first response is “Compared to what, exactly?”

My second response is that it’s a matter of degree, like every other possible way you can balance something. There is no such thing as “least effective.”

Although, off the top of my head, I would say that 50 health makes more of a consistent difference than 50 stun, so that already rules that out.

Or they could be Chipp. I suggested looking at his history for a reason, as a primary counter-example, because he’s usually around mid-tier, and has a lot of balance data available across different versions compared to most characters in his archetype.

Again, I feel like when people say “good tools” they’re really just saying the character is good. Those are different things. I’d say Cammy is still really strong, but she doesn’t have tools as objectively good in a vacuum as some characters worse than her. And you could say this about any archetype. It’s not exclusive to glass cannons. Look at the reasons why the character is good or bad in the particular game. Rufus has good tools AND high health, but he has weaknesses. I don’t want to retype that entire post, so I’ll hold off there.

The point is that these characters, Akuma included, are not going to be inherently restricted to top or bottom just because of their moveset. And Akuma may have to play at close range eventually like every other character in SF4, but he is still incurring more risk in doing so than a Ryu would be.

E.Ryu is actually a pretty good example here, looking at the “why.” Thanks to the true blockstring on hadoken, he no longer has to incur as much risk to access damage, and along with oki becoming weaker, the current version of his game is much more welcoming to him.

Yes, those numbers are far from the high end of damage. I’m not a Seth player, and I didn’t know the numbers on his combos, but I know his single hits, SPD, metered options are relatively low in damage, and ultra is not easy to tack on to a combo outside of punishes, especially with the ways Seth normally lands hits. Since I know Juri’s damage numbers by heart, I think I have a decent frame of reference for that, and from her I know it’s not a good idea to count on cornered damage or special circumstances. Even the Cammy numbers I also know are on the low end now in Ultra, damage-wise. Maybe my opinion would be different if I had a different character choice, played a more defensive battle against Seth, and was cornered more often.

Like I said, health balance is non-intrusive. People don’t see it as a big deal, or feel the difference when they play. But 50 health is a 5% buff (assuming average health, but usually better) to the damage of every move the opponent has. It probably makes more difference than most people give it credit for. I’m reminded of the Chun ultras that kill where they previously wouldn’t, or the Makoto ultras that don’t kill where they previously would.

It’s a matter of degree, too. If you’re talking about frame data, nerf Cammy’s health by 50 and it would make more difference than 1 less frame of hit advantage on cr.HP, which only mattered for certain character-specific combos, aside from further reducing the fun of the character.

I can already see it. The next reveal trailer:

It’s dark and the only thing visible is a black silhouette of Street Fighter V’s logo. Besides that, everything else is quiet and still.

All of a sudden, a ray of light bursts through the top of the screen, illuminating the logo. Feint singing can be heard, “Here comes the sun (du dn du du)”.

Then, IT’S FUCKING INGRID OH MY GOD. GAMEPLAY AND SHIT.

Fanboys rejoice, haters rage and people who don’t know who she is go “ok”.

It’s beautiful.

I had a similar dream some days ago where they’d reveal a new character at an event, the trailer started with a Karin laugh, then a silhouette of her, and Ingrid was revealed right after that.

The end of that dream was Ono laughing and everyone started to riot and destroy the place… I honestly wouldn’t be surprised if that happened in real life, lol.

Clearly, the next character reveal will be Ingrid cosplaying as Karin.

Fixed for accuracy.

Balrog is the next reveal. Then Reveal number 12/13 will be Juri.

They should just reveal Juri already to kill our anxiety… really doubt they’d leave out at least one SF4 newcomer, and Juri would fit so well in SFV, too.

Really hope they put those moves from Omega in this game, it would be great to have all of those Jafuten followups she got and other stuff (Birdie has similar commands that makes him control the direction of those chain grabs IIRC), and considering some characters got a lot of new moves then it’s definitely possible.

Can they finally put a wrestler/grappler in this game?
I don’t like Birdie, I want Zangief or Sodom… something like that.

I wonder how a pure grappler would work this time around.

We need gief… But I want a Krav Maga type character.

Urien please!