I’m pretty sure that if ken does the jumping fierce early enough to stuff a properly timed low fierce, then he has to sacrifice the possibilty of hitting Guile if he does nothing.
And as for the knee, by mixup I mean like,
knee sonic boom
knee jab sonic boom
knee low forward
knee jump in
knee back roundhouse
etc
I think a lot of people don’t realize how much better Ken’s jumping fierce is than Ryu’s. (They do look exactly the same) I’m not sure which version of SF2 this was first in, either CE or WW? But Ken’s jump fierce is way way better.
In Hyper Fighting I’d say this is about an even matchup, or, it’s very close.
I don’t go with the argument that Guile can’t keep up in the “projectile war” as why Ryu would be better. Guile could not keep up in the so-called “projectile war” in Remedial Street Fighter 2 but Guile clearly destroys Ryu in that version.
Mind you, in the very early days people were convinced that Guile sucked, for the exact reasons many of you are talking about. Boy were they wrong.
Another thing most of you are overlooking is the fact that Guile’s recovery after throwing a projectile is very short - not as short as it was in Remedial - but still very short. That’s one advantage Guile does have in the projectile war.
That short recovery time allows Guile to position better than any other projectile-throwing character in the game. For this reason, even though Guile’s normals have some of the weakest priority in the game, because of the flexibility of using them they can still be effective in the context of a strategy that controls the round.
The previous poster who mentioned Guile’s low-priority normals was dead on.
If a Guile throws a sonic boom from a range that leaves him no counters he deserves to get nailed. When I play Guile I get in right out of range of low roundhouse. If they try to sweep I hit them with forward on their recovery, follow with SB and move up or knee hop so I’m back in position again. This is sort of an aggresive turtling.
If I throw SB from just outside of sweep range and they jump, I can a) walk forward a step and do standing forward, b) walk forward a step and wait for the kick, at which point I duck (so the kick wiffs) and hit them with two low strongs (works very well against Hondas who aren’t expecting it), c) take the hit and get the the reverse throw, d) do a fast jumping roundhouse or jumping fierce, e) etc.
jcasetnl:
Guile would actually be a LOT worse if not for his c.forward. But in terms of priority, c.forward is all he needs most of the time.
Anyway, you’re quite wrong about Guile’s recovery being a factor in a FB fight with Ken/Ryu. It makes no difference. Guile can, at best , match two out of every 3 FBs that RyuKen throw at him. He has to avoid or block the 3rd one. I guess if you’re a master of that charge trick that Apoc once mentioned but no on I know has been able to get it work, you might be able to keep up a bit more, but regardless, Guile cannot keep up with a FB war indefinitely.
Also, I cannot recall a time when anyone thought Guile sucked personally. Certainly not for not being able to keep up in a FB war since I’m not sure if it even applied back then - his SB recovery was better and Ken/Ryu’s FB speed/recovery were worse.
Also:
> If a Guile throws a sonic boom from a range that leaves him no counters he deserves to get nailed. When I play Guile I get in right out of range of low roundhouse. If they try to sweep I hit them with forward on their recovery, follow with SB and move up or knee hop so I’m back in position again. This is sort of an aggresive turtling.
The problem here is the “get right out of range of low roundhouse”. Yes, Guile wants to be in this range, but I’m saying that’s it’s actually harder for Guile to get in this range and stay there than it is for KenRyu to keep him out of that range and, once he’s gotten in there, to reset the distance.
> If I throw SB from just outside of sweep range and they jump, I can a) walk forward a step and do standing forward, b) walk forward a step and wait for the kick, at which point I duck (so the kick wiffs) and hit them with two low strongs (works very well against Hondas who aren’t expecting it), c) take the hit and get the the reverse throw, d) do a fast jumping roundhouse or jumping fierce, e) etc.
I think you’re overestimating Guile’s SB recovery. Either that, or you don’t see where Ken jumps from. Once Guile is in his optimal range, Ken has two choices: If Guile is crouching, he jumps or walks backwards. Distance reset. If Guile is already standing, he jumps towards him with j.fierce (what kick? Ken only jumps with j.fierce on Guile, unless for some bizarre reason he jumps from far and uses j.roundhouse, but Ken doesn’t have to jump from that far; note I’m only talking about Ken here, not anyone else vs. Guile, so I don’t know why you mentioned Honda), which has a high chance of stuffing whatever anti-air Guile uses. As long as he doesn’t do it ridiculously high (he doesn’t have to do it very high to counter Guile’s c.fierce), he still gets to land and mash on c.short (which may or may not hit), then tacks on c.forward/c.roundhouse to Fb. Distance reset. It doesn’t matter to Ken if Guile throws a SB at either of these points. All that matters is what Guile is doing - standing or crouching.
is crouching fierce a reliable anti air in HF? everytime i try that i get stuffed by ryu’s jumping hk :/. i feel like i’m forced to jump on ryu in HF and he can jump at me for free unless i have a fk.
for me even though i’m not that good, i think the guile can win this match easier in ST and its harder in HF…?
An early Ken/Ryu jump rh will usually stuff a Guile low fierce. If they are right on top of you you can either do an early low fierce (often not an option) or try to sac throw. Since Ken/Ryu did their jumpkick early you should recover in time to sac throw.
However you are better off using stand strong, low strong, (far) stand rh or stand forward. Problem with using stand forward is that you lose all your charges, but it works well.
ok heres a basic factual question that has to be answered, and which I’m not totally sure about:
Can a shoto time a jumping attack so that it will both 1) stuff an on-reaction low fierce and 2) hit Guile if he ducks ?
Is anyone sure about the answer to this question?
I’m pretty sure the answer is no, right?
And then stormflower that answers your question.
Okay, fine, let’s say, for (ridiculous) argument’s sake, that Guile’s SB recovery has nothing to do with this matchup. Then I’m sure you can explain to me how Ryu beats Guile in Remedial (classic) SF2.
Because… he can only match… at best… two fireballs. Uh…riiiiight.
This is a ridiculous argument. Go back to remedial and learn the data… learn the BASICS. It’s not all about a fireball war.
If that were the case, every non-projectile throwing char would have been dispatched by default.
- j
I guess it’s possible. But personally, I don’t leave myself to that chance. I think, in the end, that any character could be open to that under the right circumstances. That’s where your personal style and skill step in. Closing that “window” is the whole point of playing, right?
Well, you’ve stuffed me many times on kaillera with crouch fierce in ST. however, sometimes i’m playing HF with my friend and i totally set him up and predict and do crouch fierce early only to get stuffed 
Um…in classic DPs did not always knock over, the fireballs were slower, recovered slower, Ryu hurricane did not knock down. Meanwhile Guile stand forward and low forward were awesome, SB recover awesome, etc.
Guile’s boom recovery plays a role in classic, but it’s more general than that. Guile in classic was really good, shotos were not.
storming flower, no matter how early you do the low fierce, I think he can always do the air move sufficiently early to stuff you (in either game I think). If your opponent has a habit of doing this, then, as I said before, just duck under his too-early move, and sweep him as he lands. Hitting his vulneruble landing frames takes practice though… (something I need to work on actually)
I dunno if sweep is the best thing (I’m anti-sweep… It pains me to see it 
) By the time you recover from that second kick he’s almost back up. Maybe you could do meaty low forward, d.strong, flash if he was right on top of you? The meaty low forward would be easier to time anyways.
About the Fb-war thing. No, Guile can’t keep up with Fbs… But If you’re throwing 4 FBs in a row from afar you’re begging to eat a long range j.rh (i’m pretty sure this is fullscreen?). Pounding away with FBs isn’t always safe from afar, but for Guile it is because of his short delay.
What exactly is Ryu trying to force here anyways? If Guile jumps from afar while Ryu is free what does Ryu hit him with? J.RH? walk up D.strong?
Also, someone mentioned earlier that your can duck fierce, or go for sac-throw (prolly a typo). You should ALWAYS go for sac-throw if they hit high… Only times you shouldn’t are when they’re not in range, or you fear DP/HK or are going for flashkick. I’ve seen people walk into jump-ins with the anticipation that they’ll hit high. Don’t do that!! Very dangerous. Always attack or block.
What I meant was, if you do a low fierce for them to stuff it they have to do their air attack pretty early, which means you can probably sac throw. But not always, it depends on how far away they are. You might get pushed back too far.
I don’t know what game you guys are playing, maybe the PC version where the characters jumped twice as far? Because Guile cannot hit anybody when jumping on from full screen distance.
On top of that his jump roundhouse does not extend downwards at all, it is totally horizontal…DP bait. 90% of the time Guile jumps in he will be using forward kick since it has the downward angle. Jump roundhouse is begging to be DP’d.
Er… exactly. That’s my point - there is more to this matchup than just a projectile war. To simply say the reason Ryu beats Guile is because Guile can’t match Ryu’s projectiles is an oversimplification and, well, just plain wrong.
If it was simply a matter of who can throw projectiles the fastest, then Ryu would have been better in Remedial.
And like I said in another post, supremacy of normals, or even the DP, doesn’t mean anything if Ryu/Ken is sitting there in FB recovery. Taking advantage of that and maximizing the short recovery for the SB depends on how well you control the round.
So what this matchup really comes down to is how well either player can control the round, not how many projectiles you can chuck in a row.
On the one hand, Guile has a charge projectile with a short delay while Ryu has a non-charge with a longer delay. Guile can do a lot more with the mental game using his projectile because of this short delay. It allows him to position more freely and use his normals in a wider variety of ways.
the jumping roundhouse is better than the jumping forward cause it leaves you in better position. If you guessed right on a fireball you should be able to hit with either. The timing on the roundhouse is tighter though…
And about sac throwing…
God damn I swear I cant this to work consitently. Unless the guy hits me from retartedly high, then I find the throw doesnt come out before he can low short.
Yeah, I agree. To elaborate on that last bit about walking in and anticipating the high hit, the sac-throw is not always gauranteed. If I jump in and I know I’m going to hit high, I don’t do anything. My opponent thinks I will hit high so they go for a sac throw, but if I don’t stick out a limb they don’t get it. I land and throw them (or they hit me - whoever is faster to the button). Or, another option is to just attack later, because again, your opponent assumes you’ll hit high and the sac-throw is a gaurantee. It’s counterintuitive because you’re vulnerable in the air for so long but they wise up quick when they get hit with a deep combo.
The only real counter to gaurantee the sac throw is to stick something out. If your opponent chooses not to attack or attack late, they get hit clean. If they hit high, they stuff or trade your anti-air and you get the follow up throw.
QUOTE]*Originally posted by margalis *
** I don’t know what game you guys are playing, maybe the PC version where the characters jumped twice as far? Because Guile cannot hit anybody when jumping on from full screen distance.
On top of that his jump roundhouse does not extend downwards at all, it is totally horizontal…DP bait. 90% of the time Guile jumps in he will be using forward kick since it has the downward angle. Jump roundhouse is begging to be DP’d. **
[/quote]
I was talking about a Shoto who is keeping you back with FBs from far out. Let’s say I’m trying to keep up with the FBs… If I match a FB about 2 character widths in front of me and I smell another FB coming then I jump towards as he’s throwing the next one… J.forward won’t reach, but just before I land a long j.rh should tag his outstretched arms. Normally it would whiff but his arms are stuck out… I was just saying that you can’t try to out-projectile him all the time because it’s not safe.
brian:If it’s not a combo, you definitely should be able to squeeze an instant throw in… unless HF is different than other SFs? A flashkick should stop the shorts if you can. But shit happens… you can’t get it ALL the time.
I dunno if this has been discussed before… what’s a good way to hit Ryu’s hurricane when you don’t have a flash kick charged? I fear that one move the most I think… I spend all this time trying to get in to low forward range, and that’s the PERFECT range for his hurricane kick…
actually I guess I’m sorta ignoring the title of this thread, because I’m basically always talking about ST… I don’t know anything really detailed about hf :).
About the sac throw… I swear I mash on throw like mad when it looks like hes really high, and he still can get the low short out. Maybe I’m wrong about how high they have to be . But you must be right about the if-it-won’t-combo thing. So I dunno. I’ll mash harder next time :). Or am I better off trying to time it just right instead of mashing? I noticed that works better in some situations.
I mentioned something about punishing the hurricane kick in the Guile thread. But I think I understand the technique better now then I did before.
Low fierce is really inconsistent as I’m sure you’ve realized.
The thing to do seems to be to stand and block.
You block all the hits, except the last one, which you quickly duck, then immediately stand again, and hit strong. You should hit him as he falls. Maybe fierce or low fierce works at that point too, I havent really experimented that much.
And to be honest, I havent bothered to actually learn this technique properly because I instead just do the easier bastardized method I described in the Guile thread. Its less consistent, but works well enough that people have stopped trying to hurricane kick me :). Which is why I havent practiced the more precise version :).
Basically you have to count out the hits (including whiffed ones) of the hurricane… something I havent trained myself to do, but doesnt seem like it would be that hard. Maybe this causes problems if he does a forward kick one, but, no one does that :).