Hardban means it’s banned in tournaments. Softban is more like an unofficial ban, what people “shouldn’t” be using. Doesn’t mean that they can’t, but it’s frowned upon by people who softbanned them. Like infinites, Cable, throwing, Iceman, just about anything that makes the game “not fun.” Those kinds of things.
I believe Apoc already explained this around page 6.
Heh, now you’re just boring. Yes, of course there is a softban on Vega and O.Sagat and Akuma in parts of Japan. This is known info. There isn’t anything new that’s been added to reality so, yeah, I’m right.
What a dork. You wanted me to tell you if I thought I was correct about saying there was a softban? Yeah, it’s still a cop out.
The only reason to answer you is because you seem to not notice the obvious. You are so consumed with whether or not I am right or wrong that you’re making a fool of yourself. Seriously, let it go. You’re gettin’ kinda psycho here. There isn’t any pertinent game info being spread here. Just you constantly crying for me to give you want you want. Sure, I’ll throw a beggar sumpn.
You’re the thickest guy I’ve seen around here in a long time. You look hella goofy AND you’re trying to trap me somehow(retardedly) or prove that I was wrong about something. I dunno man. Get a grip. This ain’t normal anymore.
Apoc.
Apoc: Thanks, bro. That wasn’t so hard, was it?
So there we have it folks. “In SOME PARTS of Japan, these characters are softbanned.” LOL!
Guess what? In SOME parts of the USA, prostitution is legal!
What about the OTHER parts?? Can ya CLARIFY? You say that this is “known info”? For who? T.Akiba didn’t seem to know about it. Eishi didn’t know about it. I didn’t know about it. Were you the only one who knew about it?? C’mon, man. Eishi gave us references. Where’s yours? Just 'cause your name is Apoc? Is that your reference? Yourself??
See, here’s the thing. You made it sound like the Jpn players are somewhat weak 'cause they don’t use Sagat/Vega. In reality, they DO use Sagat/Vega. And, yes, top Jpn vs top US - my money is riding on top Jpn ALL THE WAY.
Bottom line: MISINFORMATION.
I’m trying to keep things real, bro. Eishi was the only one on this thread who had a mind of his own enough to challenge and research what you said. And he showed us that he was right, and found that you were wrong. So, why don’t you tell all of your little Apocolytes what time it is? You were mistaken. (I’m sure it’s not the first time either)
And don’t think this is about you being right or wrong. This is about the right info being passed around… so that people who read your posts don’t have to sound ignorant (ie “Jpnese softban Sagat and Vega - and hardly anyone in Jpn plays those characters… duh, I heard that from Apoc.”)
By the way, I see you didn’t sign up for those relaxation classes yet. LOL!
Off the Topic:
I DID trap you, but I’m NOT the one who proved you wrong. That would be Eishi… and Yourself.
Don’t sling mud, dude. Be a gentlemen. If you want to see “psycho” read YOUR posts and check out how personal you tend to get. This is the Internet, bro… and video games. Just relax, man.
I gotta admit though, my online persona is doggin’ you. LOL!
If you want details on the Soft ban on Vega and O. Sagat you can ask the U.S. ST team that went there for SBO. Here is a link to some of the discussion:
http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=25483
For the super curious get on MIRC and ask anyone from Team U.S. to explain this Soft Ban. They had extended interaction (from partying to casual play) with the Japanese ST players during their stay in Japan before and after SBO.
Reza-O: Good call.
Apoc: Although you didn’t provide the info, I withdraw my earlier posts. My apologies for ruffling your feathers.
I’ve personally played Zazz a couple of times. His gameplay and information is very reliable. He does mention a softban on Sagat and Vega. And THAT’s the bottomline.
All you Apocolytes may go on following your leader confidently. At this rate, maybe I’ll join soon.
peace out.
PS - They’re still one step ahead and you all know it. Check out the “new” strats that Zazz wrote. One step ahead.
bah, i was just about to have fun, i’ll save it then. And i still own apoc in puzzle fighter…
:lol:
Although his arguments are rather faulty, gngh wraps things up quite nicely, doesn’t he?
i like how this thread isnt about hyperfighting at ALLL anymore might as well start discussin a3…
X-ryu = best in A3 thx
um if any of you guys read Choi’s SBO log…
he mentioned that kurahashi told him that there is a N.sagat player who wins tourneys and is almost undefeatable when he picks O.Sagat. So he uses N.sagat since O.Sagat is too boring.
So there is a softban on O.Sagat, but it’s not like they don’t know how to play him. I mean, hell Onuki used him and almost beat Cole, pretty good for a casual ST player.
I’m sure if the top japanese players used o. sagat they could win most tournaments. But as they said, they find it boring. Same with vega.
Regarding US vs Japan… just ask s-kill, he mentioned in his article that in japan he saw every character played better than he’d ever seen in america.
Notice that most of the top top USA players aren’t saying shit in this thread… I would be interested in their opinion. Like Choi, valle, etc… maybe not cole 
i think apoc is just arguing cuz he uses Vega.
According to sbo and several other past japanese tournaments, Old and New vega isn’t soft banned. Only O.sagat is.
Apoc is anti japs cause he is annoyed at all the people praising jap skills. What do trashtalkers do? They shit talk. Don’t take his posts seriously unless it’s about strategy.
Troll.
I’m not annoyed at ppl praising Japanese skill. It’s only annoying when they act as if the fact that they’re Japanese is the REASON they are skillful when race has nothing to do with it. It’s a matter of culture there as opposed to here. When ppl speak stupidly, it IS pretty annoying. Isn’t blatant stupidity annoying? That’s like saying I would automatically f*ck better because I’m of latin descent. There are talented ppl of EVERY race. Players that think otherwise are merely making excuses that they think are absolute when it’s only an excuse from their limited perspective.
The other part is true. Shit talk is merely to encourage competition and heat it up a bit. Some do take it seriously though.
For the most part, you’re absolutely correct:)
oh. and it should be obvious that ghgh is a troll:P
Apoc.
Well, to take this thread back to the original topic, I’d say Ryu wins this match-up. Hell, I’d say that KEN wins this match-up, for the same reason that Ryu wins - Guile can’t keep up to a projectile assault. Even though Ken’s FBs are slower than Ryu’s, they’re still fast enough to give him the edge in controlling the pace of the fight. Ryu has faster FBs AND a much more lethal HK, so I’d say Ryu definitely wins this fight. However, Ken does have a weapon in this fight that Ryu doesn’t - jumping fierce. Ken can jump in on Guile much more easuly than Ryu can.
HF is still played every day in this country, and there are some astonishingly good players. But 99% of everyone plays Ken (even most of the good players). Me, I play Bison. I can hold my own, but DAMN. Is it me, or does Bison die extra hard to tick throws? Just last week I was getting caught in crap like blocked jumping roundhouse from Ken, walk up and throw. I mashed on c.jab and c.forward, but I just did NOT come out of block stun fasn enough for the moves to come out. So retarded. I hate the way they completely fucked Bison over in HF. Yes, he was STUPIDLY powerful in CE (in the main arcade I visit we have a CE machine two machines across from the HF machine, so it’s easy to make comparisons), but he got raped too hard in HF. :bluu:
I think Bison goes even with Guile though. 
ok, I seriously don’t understand why people would say “Ryu wins this fight because guile cant keep up in a projectile assault”. That’s a serious lack of analysis right there. Hell, I guess any character with a fireball automatically beats any character without a fireball, because “they can’t keep up in a projectile assault”. Obviously there’s a lot more to it than that. For example, if Ryu throws a fireball from full screen and Guile anticipates it, Ryu gets hit, whereas the same thing doesnt work the other way around. Ryu cant just throw fireballs endlessly. If theres ever a pattern to his fireball throwing he gets hit. If Guile maxes his sonic boom speed, Ryu feels pressured to throw his fireballs quickly and that’s predictable. I find the hardest parts in this matchup for Guile have little to do with the fireball fight, and more to do with the lack of priority on Guile’s normals, coupled with Ryu’s short hurricane kick tricks being very difficult to deal with. I don’t claim to know who wins this fight. On the other hand, as I’ve posted before, I found a Japanese ranking chart that puts the match as even: 5/5. I looked around that site more recently, and they have a page with tournament results with many famous players. So very possibly the ranking chart is based on tournament results with the best Japanese players in attendence.
So instead of posting mindless crap like “Guile loses, Ryu can throw fireballs faster”, how about trying to analyze this more carefully.
The reason why that keeps getting said is because, ultimately, that’s the main reason why Ryu wins. Obviously, it’s not the only reason why Ryu wins, but it’s the primary reason.
Let’s take the match-up from Ken’s perspective, since it’s one I’m more familiar with. In my experience, Ken has a slight advantage in this fight, also for the same primary reason: He can out-stone Guile. Ryu’s FBs are faster, so he has an even easier time, plus his HK is much better. BUt I could be wrong. Anyway, here’s how the fight goes with Ken:
As soon as the fight starts, Ken does one of two things: Walk backwards or jump backwards (optional air HK). The reason for this is that Ken’s optimal range in this fight is between 1/3rd and 3/4ths of the screen away. From this range, Guile can’t do anything except pray to hop a FB and nail Ken with an early j.forward/roundhouse if he’s lucky. Otherwise, Ken stones away, looking to DP Guile if he jumps and sticks out anything (which is much more likely to happen).
UNless you happen to be some sort of charging machine (I tried the charge trick and couldn’t get it to work), Guile can NOT keep up with even Ken’s assault. At some point, he’s forced to jump up/over a FB or block it. This doesn’t sound like a big deal, but Guile’s main problem is causing consistent damage in this fight without taking much damage himself. It’s much much easier to Ken to whittle Guile down than the other way around. Say Guile jumps up over every FB - Ken doesn’t care, he just continues to stone away. If Guile jumps up, walks forward, jumps up, then Ken has to do something. What he does depends on what Guile does. If Guile walks forward, Ken jumps at him. Ken does jumping fierce. This move seems to have a stupidly huge hit box on it. Only Ken seems to have this, not Ryu. Ken’s jumping fierce can beat Guile’s c.fierce clean. Even if it hits high, it stuns for pretty long (like many shoto attacks), allowing Ken to land and mash on c.short. Guile can try and sack throw when Ken lands, but it’s random. More than likely Ken lands and gets to land c.shorts. He gets in 3 or 4 c.shorts and finishes c.roundhouse -> FB to push himself to safety. NOw Guile is near dizzy, and if he eats another attack or two, he’s dizzied, and there goes the round.
Guile can anticipate Ken’s jump and try to air-throw him, but it’s a guesing game in Ken’s favour. Ken can do an early j.fierce if he sees Guile jump, or do j.fierce -> air HK. If the j.fierce misses, the air HK has a good chance of knocking Guile down, and Guile isn’t going to be i nthe dog house for at least the next 10-20 seconds.
If Guile manages to get in close, he has two main options: c.forward to snuff FBs attempts, or Sonic Boom to match FBs, followed by backhand. In my experience, c.forward hit trade is not in Guile’s favour, because after two trades Guile gets knocked down (possible dizzy; round is over), and the damage isn’t that great to risk that loss in positioning. As for SB + FB = backhand, Ken doesn’t really care, as it will happen maybe once in a match, and the damage is minimal to Ken. After one backhand, Guile is too far away to do it again.
But anyway, if Guile is in close, Ken does one of two things, depending on what Guile is doing. If Guile is standing, it means he’s not charged for a FK, so Ken jumps and has a great chance of nailing him with his j.fierce. If Guile is ducking, Ken backs off a little and reassumes his optimal range. The main risk that Ken runs constantly going back is that he can eventually get himself cornered, so at some point Ken will want to move forward. If Ken is cornered, Guile does have a chance to keep him there, but Ken has a much better chance of getting out (DPing a limp for example, or HKing over a Sonic Boom) than Guile does if he’s cornered. And Ken has a much better chance of cornering Guile simply because Ken, at times, has free offense - Ken can jump in on Guile as long as Guile isn’t crouching, whereas Guile can never advance/jump on Ken unless Ken throws a FB at the wrong range, which won’t happen against a good Ken, and even if Ken does throw a FB at the wrong time, the penalty is usually a jumping forward/fierce/roundhouse (combo is highly unlikely, since Ken would have to pretty much throw a FB after Guile jumps in order for Guile to land a deep enough move to combo; the best Guile can hope for is jump attack, c.forward, Sonic Boom to mount pressure, but Ken has ways around this). Once cornered, it becomes even more of a guessing game in Ken’s favour. Ken can’t keep him there indefinitely, but Guile is going to lose a chunk of life before he gets out of that corner.
When you combine the life that Guile loses when in the corner with the life that he loses out in the open, and the fact that Guile has less chance to do consistent damage unless he manages to push Ken in a corner, which Ken can do more easily, plus the fact that Guile has practically no come back power in this fight, that’s when it becomes clear that Ken has the advantage in this fight. Of course, this isn’t exactly an easy fight for Ken - he has to be constantly aware of his position in relation to Guile’s, and when to throw FBs and when to jump forward/up/backwards, but I think it’s in his favour. The primary reason is because, out in the open, Ken can control the match more easily by, ultimately, throwing a ton of FBs at Guile.
Now, if Ken can do this, I don’t see why Ryu can’t. Ryu doesn’t have Ken’s j.fierce, so he can’t jump in on Guile as easily, but Ryu can out-stone Guile out in the open far more easily than Ken. Also, Ryu’s one hit knockdown HK, that does huge damage and has a frame of invinciibility on start up, gives him options that Ken doesn’t in close. BUt yeah: “Guile loses, cause Ryu can throw FBs faster” is the short way of analysing the match.
How exactly are you hitting Ryu from full screen with a jump-in? Guile’s legs are not that long.
Typically if Guile can jump in at Ryu he is too far away to combo, and often he has to do an early forward kick to hit Ryu before he recovers. From close Ryu can sac throw that early forward. From far if Guile lands too far to combo Ryu can try to DP a limb, HK over a boom, or throw a fireball if Guile does not throw a boom immediately on landing.
The problem with this match is that at any time Ryu has a couple good options to reset the match, and Guile does not. Ryu can always DP a limb, HK a boom, short HK and throw, etc. If Ryu if cornered he has outs.
If Guile is cornered there isn’t a whole lot he can do. He has ONE option, jump.
Heh, fine full screen was a slight exaggeration :), but the jumping roundhouse still does have quite a lot of range.
A couple remarks:
-the jumping roundhouse is much better in my experience than the jumping forward kick because the hit stun is longer, leaving guile in much better position when he lands.
At this point, you can forward kick (which could get dpd), or jab looking for dp, and then forward kick, or sonic boom, or jab then sonic boom, etc.
-Ultima I agree a guile following your gameplan would get rocked. Thats because youre missing a crucial thing guile has for the fireball fight: the knee hop. So jumping up over a fireball does not reset things pointlessly. Because you can jump up, then sonic boom, then knee hop then sonic boom again and youre in good position. Yes obviously this has to be mixed up, as does anything. once you jump up, if you notice the shoto starts fireballing again at a predictable moment (ie, right away), you can nail him, otherwise the sb, knee hop sb trick should be safe because the first sonic boom meets a fireball fairly close to the shoto.
-and saying ken can jump in for free on guile without charge is wrong because if ken does a move early enough to stuff the down fierce, then guile can just duck, and sweep ken with his lack of trip guard. (the air move should whiff). Of course again you cant be predictable about this for obvious reasons…
From brian:
> -Ultima I agree a guile following your gameplan would get rocked. Thats because youre missing a crucial thing guile has for the fireball fight: the knee hop. So jumping up over a fireball does not reset things pointlessly. Because you can jump up, then sonic boom, then knee hop then sonic boom again and youre in good position.
You’re in a better position, but it’s not necessarily a position to be a threat. The closest Guile gets with that is backhand range, a range that Ryu/Ken can easily reset unless cornered (which is not often), even if they eat a backhand.
> Yes obviously this has to be mixed up, as does anything.
The problem is that Guile doesn’t have other stuff to mix in with this. His options for moving in on Ken or Ryu is walk/jump forward or Knee after Sonic Boom.
> once you jump up, if you notice the shoto starts fireballing again at a predictable moment (ie, right away), you can nail him, otherwise the sb, knee hop sb trick should be safe because the first sonic boom meets a fireball fairly close to the shoto.
There IS a split second that Ken (less so Ryu) has to wait after throwing a FB to see what Guile does, to see whether he needs to throw another one right away or take a step backwards then throw it, or even walk forward (cause Guile guessed wrong and jumped early) then DP. This is why I said this certainly isn’t a brainless fight for Ken, as he needs to constantly be aware of what Guile is doing. BUt in doing so, he will have the advantage in more positions than not.
> -and saying ken can jump in for free on guile without charge is wrong because if ken does a move early enough to stuff the down fierce, then guile can just duck, and sweep ken with his lack of trip guard. (the air move should whiff). Of course again you cant be predictable about this for obvious reasons…
Ken won’t jump in on Guile from that far. Ken only jumps in on Guile from within 1/3rd of the screen away (and if Guile is standing), and at that range Ken will smack Guile right in the head if he tries to duck and trip him. However, it may be possible for Guile to s.roundhouse Ken out of the air at that range, or walk backwards and c.forward (won’t work if Guile is cornered though, but then again, Ken won’t have to jump at Guile is he has Guile cornered). It’s not entirely for free, but Ken certainly has an easier time jumping in on Guile than Ryu.