SFIITurbo: Guile-vs-Ryu--Who wins?

Classic Fighting Games Other Games
101

Although the reply was written in english it still needs some translating.

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Since i’m the webmaster i can be neutral personally. And since there’s no hard ban, then no, he’s not ‘really’ banned.

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Someone important said they were cheap and all his followers agreed, leading to the softban, however since i don’t want to implicate anyone i’ll just pass it off :).

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If you want to know the truth, yes they are cheap and skilless, but you didn’t hear it from me "‘Someone’ told it to me, i had nothing to do with it’. I mean if you want to be a loser ass scrub and use those cheap characters than that’s fine with me, but don’t complain when you can’t find any groupies after the tourney. but no, we didn’t officially ban them, which is all you asked.

Sounds like the definition of a softban to me. Like a lot of things, it’s not a big deal in itself, more power to them, but when people find it so hard to just admit things and have to cover up everything we have to make this huge deal of it… didn’t anyone watch the impeachment trials?

But if you could i’d ask better questions like “In the US a lot of S.Sagats and Vegas win when the best players play them, how do you defeat them all so easily in japan, since i never see any in the later rounds? Please advise” I’d be intrested in the answer to that question.

102

I asked earlier “what’s a softban” but no one replied. IMO it is just that some players don’t like fighting against them, that’s all. But this is not what everybody thinks in japan. The first time I heard about it was on srk in a post made by “zass”. He also said that he was playing most of the time with the same people (Yoshimi, Akashima and another one I can’t remember) so maybe they told him that they didn’t like O. Sagat and Vega and he thought that it was what most ST players were thinking in Japan.

103

like FMjaguar said, there’s clearly more to it than that, as indicated by the extreme lack of these characters in tournaments.

104

Ok, but what if they don’t want to pick those characters ? For example, in alpha 3 V ryu and V sodom are top tier, but you don’t get to see many peeps taking them in Japan.

edit :
I just checked www.tougeki.com to see which characters were using the teams that qualified. And there was several O. Sagat and Vega. Anyone who can read katakanas can check it out.

105

WHOOMP - there it is!

LOL!

FMJaguar: Although Eishi’s reply was in English, it still needs some translating.

<Eishi wrote>
“Ok, but what if they don’t want to pick those characters? For example, in alpha 3, V Ryu and V Sodom are top tier, but you don’t get to see many peeps taking them in Japan.”

(translation)
“You mindless geek. Perhaps they don’t WANT to pick Vega and Sagat and even others. Did you brain consider THAT one??”

<Eishi wrote>
“I just checked <website> to see which characters were using the teams that qualified. And there were several O.Sagat and Vega. Anyone who can read katakanas can check it out.”

(translation)
“Here’s proof you ignorant insurgents. All of you are dead wrong, including Apoc, your hero, aka the dude who THINKS he knows what he’s talking about! ALL ya’ll suckas can kiss my #&!! Blind leading the blind.”

LOL! Jokin’!

Eishi: I know you’re not trying to be rude, just making a point, but the Apoc cheerleaders will never believe you regardless of what proof you provide. In fact, I’m suspecting that he doesn’t want to lose face, so he won’t change his stance either. Whatever. I think it’s actually kinda funny!

106

Well the first assumption is the people in question aren’t scrubs. There’s no reason for people not to pick a winning plan “because they want to”. So either 1) they have a better plan, or 2) they just aren’t being rational. So we give people the benefit of the doubt and assume #1, and look for the better plan, in fact there is none, people say themselves “S.Sagat and vega are easy to use and win with” but if they are, then surely someone in japan would be doing it, so it doesn’t make sense… Either they have better gameplans, or they are making excuses… Why would people say “I could win with this, but i choose not too” like EVERY OTHER FUCKING SCRUB IN THE WORLD DOES EVERY DAY… if the bullshit alarms are going off in your head, you’re on the right track… enter #2.

As i’ve said before it just seems that japan’s scene isn’t quite as democratic as ours, their players have more, but nothing comes for free. To me it’s very concievable that certain ‘bias’ could be injected into the scene to keep things running smoothly. I imagine perception is a bigger part of things when you have crowds willing to pay to just watch the best play.

Here if our tournies are even in the media we would die of excitement, it seems to be a good business elsewhere. So say you want to promote ST, and you notice your latest tape has 3534524 tigers and vega poking… the crowd isn’t going to like it very much, so you just throw a not-so-suttle hint in that the game ‘cant’ be played like that. I guess it helped their scene so maybe it’s a good thing overall even if it is a shifty act to begin with. I am by no means saying that is the answer, it’s just a dramatic version of how things like this happen over the course of years.

I am telling you right here if people don’t wake up and learn to have some balance in their fanboyism there’s gonna be a huge ass issue within 2 years and ALL the fanboy temples will all come crashing down whether you like it or not. I prefer peace, and for us to learn from each other and forgive our errors in judgement, and to learn the games together. But this is impossible if the answer to everything is going to be what we’ve seen in this thread here. People have to be able to defend the strong points and work on the weak points, not mindlessly defend everything as if our image of japans l33tness is what feeds your family at night.

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I can’t read katakanas, i just know on our US mirror:

http://www.shoryuken.com/tournaments/sba-quals/jpn/st.html

There are 4 sagats among 81 players on that list. I mean they ‘let’ an akuma into one of the ST tournies i hear, but we KNOW he’s at least softbanned for sure, if we assume that O.sagat isn’t quite that harsh, then 4/81 still is imbalanced for someone that is ‘easy to win with’.

Which finally leads us back to the same question that is really the center of everything… Either people have lied to you, and O.Sagat and vega aren’t easy to win with, and in fact they are pretty simple to defeat (even tho noone has explained it), or that their ST plays by different rules than ours. Since i won’t be playing in japan for a while i could care less either way if they play a different game, when they come here they have to play on shitty outdated US cabinets so it’s not like we’re perfect either. But this japanism game has to end, and will end one way or another, it’s just up to you guys to choose what ending you want.

107

Strange. Twice recently I’ve seen posts where someone acts as though when someone agrees with me it’s because they’re on my nutz or something. Wtf? Haters. Maybe you disagree with me but it’s just ignorant to assume that ppl will agree with me when I’m wrong. That comment really just shows what you think of me. It’s cool and all, but you’re one stupid muthafucka if you believe everyone that doesn’t think the way that you do is a drone.

2ndly, what’s my stance? Don’t assume the level of your own intelligence. Are you sure that you were understanding what you were reading?

And what am I wrong about? And what’s this proof? Does anyone understand what “softban” means? I think some are really getting confused now.

Actually, check your most recent posts. You’re obviously a hater. Don’t make me stop posting. lol. Seriously, you’re following me around the forums? Get a grip yo. Now you’re seeming like a psycho stalker. There have got to be more interesting things to read here than posts by me. You certainly don’t like any of em so why bother reading my still. Believe me, I’m about to stop reading yours. At least add some more humor to your hating. Make it enjoyable for others. Actually, go make a post thanking SRK for excluding A3 from Evo(that’s for the A3 playahs). I for one think it’s retarded. So please, try and figure out why I’m wrong and post it. Seriously. I would LOVE to see your thoughts on this in its’ own thread. Or do you think it’s ridiculous to exclude A3 from Evo as well?

wtf happens to threads nowadays?

Apoc.

108

Ryu Rocks Guile in HF cause Ryu’s gi looks cooler than Guile’s army pants.

109

ghgh is an idiot, that should be obvious by now.

His expert strat for HF is “wait for Ryu to jump, he always does.”

ghgh claims to be very good at old school games, but he freely admits his only comp was local scrubs and calls tourney players no-life nerds.

110

FMJag: First, how many Blankas do you count? How about Cammys? T-Hawks? E.Hondas? Zangiefs?

Second, try this one. Do you think Dhalsim is easy to learn, and to use, and to win with in Alpha3? How about ChunLi in ThirdStrike? Does that mean that you’ll automatically use those characters? No, 'cause you have your own preference in character choice. Plus, they aren’t softbanned here, but we all know that they’re pretty easy to use characters. Same concept? And who said that those characters were the only top tier characters in the game?

Basically, I’ll say this. It’s not a matter of being a fanboy, it’s a matter of knowing your role. Jpn players are the getters of info and the rest of the world are users of the info. (There are a few exceptions of course) That’s why they seem to be one step ahead of everyone else (excl MvC series). So what’s the big deal?

Apoc: Grow up kid. This wasn’t about me. I’m sticking to the subject while you go off trying to mis-direct our attention. It’s about whether there’s a softban on the characters like YOU said there was. Count the characters and tell me there’s a softban on Vega… according to the numbers. Just ADMIT it for once dude. I said my stuff in pure humor. It’s a video game, remember? Let it go, bro. Take some Yoga classes or something.

Just one thing… according to the numbers, does it look like you’re right about the softban?

111

Margalis: You are wrong, sir. That was not my “expert” strat, and I’ve played more than just local scrubs, and I didn’t say tourny players are nerds. If so, what I meant was there are a bunch of nerds at tournys. C’mon - you know it’s true. LOL!

You relax too.

112

LOL! I KNEW IT! See? You don’t even know what a softban is. Too good:lol:

Apoc.

113

Regardless of whether what my definition of a softban is…

<Apoc’s 1st attempt to avoid question>

I reiterate: ACCORDING TO THE NUMBERS, DOES IT LOOK LIKE YOU’RE RIGHT ABOUT THE SOFTBAN??

I’ll make it simple for you: type YES or NO… and explain if you can - I mean ‘like.’ Explain if you like.

LOL!

114

Ok, I throw you a bone since you yelled. You didn’t ask a yes or no question but that’s the answer you require. You see, you ask “according to the numbers.” What you don’t realize is that numbers have nothing to do with a softban.

I have no need to explain. I’m having fun witnessing you consistently act like an ass. It’s so much better for you to figure out what the f*ck you’re talking about first. Then you can hit yourself and understand why you’re looking mighty stupid here.

They’re always the last to know.

Apoc.

115

Notice <Apoc’s SECOND attempt to dodge the topic>

LOL!

I’m such a bad person for asking you to answer a simple question, aren’t I? Just for your semantic pleasure, I’ll restate my question:

According to the information we’ve recently been shown, does it look like you are correct about the softban???

<You’re answer please>

Let’s see how many times it’s gonna take for him to decide to give a straight answer guys. Remember, this is the guy that loves to give insight and lengthy explanations regarding SF info. LOL! I guess, not this time…

Eishi: What did I tell ya? He’ll not change his stance regardless of ANY proof you provide. Maybe he actually thinks that he’s always 100% right? I dunno.

116

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Irrelavant, the issue is “Sagat and Vega are easy to win with” when noone wins with them.

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I think you are confusing the issue. I don’t make a decision based on the results of tier rankings, but i do make sure my decisions should make sense when compared to the tier ranking.

If noone great is playing the top tier, noone learns to fight against them, and someone is going to say ‘wtf’ and win a tourney for free (maybe the 4 O.Sagats that did qualify, which does answer your question to apoc BTW). Then the cycle continues, top tiers aren’t consistently the least popular AND stay top tier, unless the ranking is on a different version of the game that’s being played… ‘the one with and without softbans’, for example.

This leads us back to the 2 solutions, O.Sagat is not tops and 4 people happend to do well with him (it follows that someone can explain it), or there is some factor preventing the better players from choosing him, allowing other players to win with him for free. The solution is really only through an explaination of why O.sagat sux, or the admission that players have agreed the game is more fun without him and have unofficially decided to keep him out.

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  1. Role is not at issue, it’s your flawed perspective. Where it’s acceptable to have a winning character that doesn’t win, and where everyone mysteriously has the same ‘preference’ but only in one game, and only in 2 characters. It would be equivalent to storm disappearing from the US MvC2 charts, and when the japan people ask why all the people that used to post about marvel are like ‘don’t know, didn’t feel like it’.

  2. “One step ahead” should not cause unheard of changes in our view of the game unless it is, of course, ‘game-breaking’. It’s highly unlikely that someone found a game-breaking item in ST that was kept secret from EVERYONE, even months after the fact, and with our players who were right with them, and was not demonstrated once in one of the biggest international events to date. Not to mention in a game that has been out how long now?

Furthermore it’s not like noone knows anything and japan has everything, as someone put it a long time ago, we get 60% juggles, they get 80% unblockables, we know what move works, they have the frame data to verify it works, etc… it’s not like we’re using kyosuke/dan, and they use sagat/blanka, it’s not like they use akuma/bonerine and we use storm/sent either.

Really your points are still wrong regardless of the end result. I’ve explained both why my reasoning could be correct, and how it could be wrong, and either answer will help everyone understand a little bit more about the game and/or the scene. What is your deal? to post questions after i already post the answer and pretend it’s some awesome point.

It’s apparant that you(ghgh) aren’t the person that is going to bring us any closer to an understanding, so i see no reason to reply to you further.

117

Why are you guys seriously replying to ghgh.

As I said before, he is a mall scrub player, who not only has never been to tourney but made fun of tourney players as having no life. And again, his Guile strats (in this very thread) were laughable. He’s just some scrub looking for attention.

118

FMJag: I’m not being mean, but your reply doesn’t make any sense. It’s like you’re trying to use too many words, or maybe you don’t know how to explain yourself efficiently… ??

Let me break it down. Apoc contends that there’s a softban on Sagat and Vega in Jpn. Eishi says, “I don’t think so.” Eishi gave pretty good evidence that there are several players that freely choose to play Sagat and Vega (in relation to other characters).

Now, if there was actually a softban on these characters, I would think that you’d see virtually no one using them (ie Akuma). But people ARE using them (as democratic-ly as we do here it seems).

But why aren’t there MORE Vegas/Sagats?? To further explain, let me ask this again: If Dhalsim is top tier in Alpha3, why don’t most of the top players use him and just win? Why isn’t there more of him in major tournys?? 1) 'Cause people don’t WANT to play Dhalsim and 2) they think that they can do just as well with another character (even though it may take a little more practice and strategy… ie, V-Sak, Akuma, etc).

Why is that so hard to comprehend? Anyways, the main point is that is SEEMS apparent that Apoc was spreading misinformation regarding Jpn players. And now, he refuses to explain himself or retract his remarks. I thought he was a reasonable dude up until this. But now…hmmm. Does ANYONE think that answering my question is UNREASONABLE???

Instead of coming back with an attack on my online persona, why not just address the topic?? FMJag and I seem to be the only ones lately to even remotely talk about the topic.

“I’m gonna ignore GHGH. He doesn’t know nuthin’. blah, blah, blah. Don’t listen to him.” I simply want a direct answer, that’s all. FMJag, I know you’re the official English-to-English translator here, but I’m sure APoc can answer on his own.

But I bet he won’t… LOL! <loose face>

Btw, SVGL players are crybabies - they think that throwing is CHEAP!

119

Softban on characters doesn’t mean that people won’t use them, it’s just that a lot of people won’t. Maybe because they are not fun in casual play or are considered “cheap,” like throwing. But last time I checked, something being cheap doesn’t stop players from using them in tournaments. So it’s not very accurate to gauge the degree of the softban on tournament numbers alone. You can only really tell if you play them casually.

120

Apoc wrote :

LOL! I KNEW IT! See? You don’t even know what a softban is. Too good

I asked you in one of my previous posts to give me precisions about the softban notion to make sure that we were talking of the same thing but you didn’t reply. At first I thought that softban meant : “software banned”. Then I rethought it and concluded that it meant that O. Sagat an Vega were banned in the community, ie most japanese ST players don’t approve the use of those characters.
Can you tell me your definition to make sure that we are talking of the same thing ?