It is so good, that for final against the Japanese players does not go nor.:evil:
It does not import nothing to speak that X or Y plays well with Ryu…
Guile is best in SSF2T.
E thus ties the end of the times. it wants want or not. Guile is all powerful
Who gained finishes it championship USA/JAP? Ryu, Ken, Chun Li??? Guile who more. 
Bye
Cauptain
i think ryu wins
ignore my name on this thread please:lol:
We weren’t talking super turbo. We’re talking about TurboSF2HyperFighting. Totally different. You also have to see how many characters Guile is facing. I think it was clear that Sim owned Guile at SBO but Kurahashi had clutch and went after it and pulled the win out of his ass. He outplayed the Sim player at the moment. Valle beat him with O.Sagat. Valle was also the least experienced ST player there. He won 4 of 5. Kinda shows the power of Sagat over Guile when he did just as well as Kurahashi vs the Japanese with FAR less tourney experience and he even defeated him too. Japanese players, I hear, are so ineffective against Sagat and Vega that they softban them like Akuma! That type of mentality doesn’t fly in the US anymore. Funny how glitches like RC and unblockables are all good but beatable characters aren’t! It’s plain to see that their views are exclusive to the issue. Nothing is cheap now, but on ST Vega/Sagat is cheap. As Americans, we’re told to overcome shit like RC and embrace the deeper levels that ccs can bring. But hold off if someone picks characters that are viewed unbeatable! Just a funny contrast I thought.
Guile will lose to Vega too, but, again, you’re talking about a totally different game. Read carefully meign.
Apoc.
Well, in the US we do hard-ban Akuma, and in Japan Akuma is only soft-banned.
The reasons are the same, Akuma is just too good. I guess they think Sagat and Vega are also too good, or kind of a mix of too good and not fun to fight against. My understanding is that when people choose Sagat and Vega they are seen as lame scrubs just trying to win not on their own merits or something like that.
Don’t know a whole lot about the jap-scene, but remember that they usually have to stick to one character during a tournament. Another words, you can’t just pick a counter character if you know that your opponent is going to choose Sagat.
I’ve fought against a pretty decent O.Sagat and it’s no joke - if you’re not using a counter character. Anyone care to disagree?
Another thing to keep in mind - if hardly anyone uses O.Sagat or Vega, I’m sure that they’ll have a hard time playing against those characters when someone like Valle comes in there. Thus, Valle getting some good wins. However, I dare to say that if you give 'em some time to adjust and adapt, they’ll start their winning ways - real quick.
Food for thought.
Apoc wrote :
Japanese players, I hear, are so ineffective against Sagat and Vega that they softban them like Akuma!
Actually this is not the reason why they softbanned them. The reason is that those characters are easy to use (in comparsion to the other chars of the game) and don’t require much work and thinking to get good with. Thus, they don’t make the game interesting.
Apoc, you know the situation in Japan. Lots of players (well not a huge number if you compare to the other games, but there are more ST players here than anywhere else) and there is competition everyday in the arcades, since 1994 ! So I think that this is not a matter of them being ineffective vs Sagat and Balrog. They have the best ST community in the world in terms of quality and quantity so I think they know their shit.
You can say they are so easy to get good with. But then, I never see Vega winning tourneys there or here anymore. So, it’s not so easy apparently. Vega and Sagat both have counter characters. It’s the same excuses ppl make in the states. Totally different from the “accept everything in the game” attitude that the new generation players there have. RC is coo, but Vega and Sagat aren’t. Low fierce is cool, but tiger tiger tiger is too good. Even the best Vega player in Japan isn’t winning.
See, because Japan softbans them, ppl assume, that since JAPAN softbans them, they are too good. That’s ridiculous. They aren’t even close to the level of Gouki. They can both lose to multiple characters. I don’t really need to hear what ppl “think” on paper. On paper, P is the best groove in the game in CvS2.
Seriously, softbanning Vega and Sagat just means that ppl frown on those characters. The best Vega in Japan is “annoying Vega.” They hate the way he plays. Yeah, he’s hella annoying. Not enough to win a national in years though. Who’s won the last ones in Japan? Chun li and Guile? It’s not as if that Vega was absent both times since his team got 2nd at one.
Point being, if we applied the same attitude to new games as they do on ST we’d be frowning at every Blanka and Cammy AT LEAST add Vega and…man there are so many braindead, yet effective characters in CvS2. They are all easier to pick up and win with than Vega and O.Sagat. Ok, maybe not O.Sagat. Still, it’s a complete contrast in their views. Old school: ban annoying frustrating shit. New School:Learn to get around shit like low fierce and RC.
You must be blind if you can’t see this. Just like many ol skoolers here softbanned throws even at tourneys in the states. The common reason would be that a throw was too simple to execute for the damage it does. Well hell, let’s ban higher ratios and Xism!
Unfortunately, ppl seem to think that the Japanese have some superior mentality which allows them to gauge what’s cheap and easy and what isn’t.
They say shit today isn’t cheap, you buy it. They say some old other shit IS cheap, you buy it. Not to be rude, but that’s pathetic and it shows the depth of critical judgement found on these forums.
Here’s the truth. Banning Sagat and Vega is a cop out. If you can’t beat em, take em outta the game. Hella weak coming from those that accept anything, even glitches, when they play.
Just cuz the Japanese think something ppl make it THEIR way of belief as well. Drones.
It’s one thing to respect the Japanese, it’s another to downplay the intelligence and opinions of Americans. Get a grip…or wake up…or something.
Just being real. No offense intended. However, if you’d like to prove your point there are the MWC and EVO coming up. Why not learn O.Sagat and Vega and see how far ya go?
Apoc.
I understand your point. But I don’t beleive what the japanese say about the game because I think they’re superior of something like that. I described the situation in japan, and this is what makes me beleive what they say. I don’t buy what they say like a robot, I buy it because they had the best conditions to develop an in deep knowledge of the game. Now I’m sure that if europe and america had a SF community that grown in the same conditions as japan, there would not be much differences in terms of level between those places.
Unfortunately, this is not the situation today : the japanese ST community is superior to the american one. Not because they are japanese, but for the reasons stated earlier. I don’t care about the ethnic origins of people, we are all humans, period.
Now when I heard that they softbanned (btw, does that mean that they hacked the roms of the pcbs to make them unchoosable ?) I was surprised. I tried to understand and the only reason I found for that softban was that some random scrub could get strong (well, not that strong, but annoying enough to make things less interesting) with them easily. But I understand that you rejected this idea, because you are a Vega player. I would have reacted the same way if my char (chun-li) got attacked.
this has to be the most entertaining thread iv read in a while ghgh atacking people over a message board he doesnt even know and calling people in tournaments nerds too funny.
Yo, apoc, nice post. I’ve been telling people this for a long time. THey never want to come to their own conclusions about anything, they just want to take what the japanese say or a tourney players idea and think of it as truth. People these days don’t want to learn to get around shit, they’d rather ban something or just call it cheap
Here’s the flaw in your thinking. This is ST. It’s a SF2 game. During that era, Cali had endless ammounts of comp. This is the one game that the Japanese don’t have a training ground advantage as far as knowledge of the match-ups. They are more fresh and warm with everything at the forefront from playing more often of course. But that has NOTHING to do with determining how overly dominant a character is.
So, let me help you out here. The characters that are overly powerful are the characters that weak players can compete with. That’s not gonna happen in ST at all aside from Akuma and a LITTLE of that may be true of Sagat. But not really. SO…even in Japan, there are no weak ass Vegas or Sagats that are getting ANYWHERE in tourney. Ya see, the learning curve for ST isn’t steep at initial levels, but at the level that ppl play on now, it’s damn hard. Even with all of the info tossed around the web and game info and things of that nature, you don’t see many ST players that only started a few years ago going anywhere at a national tourney. The ones that do only do so because they are naturally more talented. Match up strats are very specific. It’s nothing like CvS2 style of strategy.
Basically, America had the “training ground” on SF2 games like Japan does everyday. So we, as Americans, know more than enough to make a judgement call on a characters abilities at a realistic level. Sure, you gave your reason for buying shit but they are irrellevant when talking about any sf2 game. In fact, the level Japan was at when ST was introduced looked pretty pathetic(on the Gamest ST tape of the tourney they had introducing the game). That’s not to say they aren’t great now, but only that it’s very apparent that some match-up knowledge was understood much better here 3 games earlier. You watch their Guile vs. Vega matches and it’s retarded. You can’t make the excuse that they didn’t understand ST yet since it was new because you could use the same two moves to dominate the match in ST as you could in Champion Edition. They didn’t understand the match years after Vega was playable. At least the players that showed up to that particular tourney had no clue.
The point is, SF2 progressed for 5 games. Those were the peak years for comp in America. So…on ST. We know our shit too.
And again, knowing my shit, softbanning Sagat and Vega is a weak and retarded cop out. Someone got so good with Vega and since Vega doesn’t have many complicated joystick motions, his style looks easy no matter what you do. No one likes it when someone appears to be winning with ease. The Japanese even call the guy “annoying” Vega because he OBVIOUSLY pissed plenty of people off. It’s not as if every Vega player was doing that. Overly dominating? It’s not like Vega can stick to one special to control a match. It’s not as if he can do block damage with ANY special without risk since all of his specials have mad start up… Yo, I could list the weakness of all of the characters. I could list counter match-ups.
I mean…Sim even wins in Japan on ticks. You can win a round on 2-3 ticks and an opening. I don’t see them banning Sim since it’s so easy to use his throws. Hell, before ST, Sim had infinite AND inescapable ticks. One throw=death. What could be easier? Let’s bring up Rog and a every other good character that can dominate with something simple in a match here and there.
Games have different characters. The problem is that good strategy requires you to pick the character with the most advantages. But that would make for hella boring competition if every tried to be completely strategic. Still, we understand that there are stonger and weaker characters. Some are even easy to use too! Look at Blanka and Sagat on CVS2. They would be softbanned in Japan if the same mindset was applied, as well as Cammy. Everyone can agree that these are simplistic characters(let’s throw cvs2 vega in the mix. He’s easy, just not damaging enough to not have to work at all. If he did Sagat damage? Seriously, he’s hella simple in this bitch). Even not so good players can win with them. That much has been proven. Why no softban in Japan? Because it’s a newer game and no single player has found a strat or tactic that has annoyed enough ppl yet. Still, these characters are more braindead in CvS2 then any character in ST. It’s just not as noticeable with a team line up and 44 somthing characters.
Cop out. Sorry, I hella respect a lot of the Japanese players, but the mentality of a softban on 2 more characters in ST is retarded. “Let’s make ppl feel bad for using characters that are too difficult for us to overcome.” Because they aren’t like Akuma.
And the reason akuma loses in ST EVER is because no good player is gonna use Akuma. The game would be boring to him just to practice him. So any Akuma you see in an ST tourney always sucks.
Apoc.
I don’t think there is any infinite in HF.
I will try to get more information on that softban. It doesn’t seem like it’s approuved everywhere in japan, because at the tougeki there was at least one Vega (balrog in japan) player.
Here is what some japanese ST player told me about sagat and vega :
“I don’t care about Barlog or S-Sagat.
But I’ve heard someone doesn’t like fighting against these charactors. Probably, because these are not only strong also easy to use”
And he didn’t told me anything about the softban, so this may only be a legend after all O_o
In English, does that mean that they’re scrub characters? LOL!
I wouldn’t suspect a “softban” on any character in Jpn. Perhaps it’s comparable to what USA says about Third Strike Chun Li and CvS2 Sagat/Blanka characters. They’re not softbanned, but just not so much credit is given to the actual player when he wins with these characters?
Still, in general, I agree with Eishi - Jpn (in general) whoops up on US players for free… in virtually any REAL game. (Ooops! It came out by accident! LOL!)
LOL…oh that hypocrisy is just too sweet for words.
I don’t know if i have the log but it the softban was confirmed from japanese players a while ago, so either someone forged a japan isp ip just to trick ppl, or you just weren’t there like the 50 other people. It seems likely to me cause i don’t give a damn how much someone knows about ST, a tourney of 4 billion people without a decent O.Sagat or vega is fishy. It’s like if all the sagats and blanka’s disappeared off of CvS2, isn’t going to happen without some brainwashing.
FMJaguar, I asked T. Akiba who is the webmaster of a great japanese ST website. The forum of the website is frequented by some of the best ST players of Japan, so I think he knows what he’s talking about.
You can read it yourself here : http://games.t-akiba.net/bbs/bbs.cgi?nf=0
I used my usual nick name “Stargazer”.
Yo Apoc can you go to this link on gaming discussion and answer my Q about the SSF2X players in Japan at the time, this vid was made. Since you named those players back in 91 and I believe you might know the answer
http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=33032
Apoc,
Whats up? This is probably the wrong place for this Q, but i just thought I’d start talk about something new and less subjective…
anyways…do you think vega can beat a turtling Guile who stays in his corner? How do you approach this match up?
I was just wondering, it’s giving me problems lately
thanks,
joe