I’d wondered why I hadn’t seen you in these forums Rice.
For Honda, I’ve been cultivating a strategy I’ve code named “Out Honda Honda.” In essence, it’s aggressive turtling Jinjah-style. You will be doing a LOT of “intercepting the fist.” I tried it out against Str8crazy, Ego and mad possum recently and it worked well (I took the sets).
The first thing that I learned against good Hondas is to cut the flying kicks from my repertoire almost entirely save for mixups. You do it so sparingly that they don’t see it coming.
The main weapons in this match are your punches. You just have to vary them according to Fei’s proximity from Honda. For close range, st. HP is your best friend. Use the st. HP from max distance and outside of Honda’s f. HK (his standing long range sweep) range and you will stuff 90% of fat boy’s offense. Generally, I’ve noticed that cr. HP is not as reliable since headbutts fly right over it and hit you and if Honda decides to do a flying butt splash it is almost a free hit for him. The st. HP will allow you to uppercut his corpulent arse right out of the air if he tries it.
If I’m at midscreen, I use st. MP to counter headbutts as well as HHS. MP is significantly faster than st. HP but it beats headbutt cleanly as well. From a full screen away, your best bet is generally blocking but, as I’ve learned from my favorite Bison, st. LP is a hell of a tool for frustrating Honda. I’ve literally stuffed EVERY full screen headbutt attempt from Honda in a match using nothing but LP. This of course forced Honda to take uncharacteristic risks.
You can mix in jump away MK since if you time this well, you can beat headbutt attempts cleanly. Furthermore, if you’re cornered and anticipate and headbutt, use the corner to your advantage. As Honda passes beneath you, use the jump away Mk to initiate an instant crossup combo (HP to Rekkas) for huge damage, a knockdown and hopefully the life lead. After I knock them down, I don’t bother with anything that I might otherwise do if he had a lead (e.g. overhead, shallow cr. HP, feint to flame kick etc.) Instead, I’ll just backpedal away from him and force him to come to me for a change.
This makes even the best Hondas hesitant to throw out wanton headbutts–which is just what you want. When Honda realizes that you’re sitting all over his HP headbutt attempts, he might try to catch you off guard with LP headbutts (punish with Rekkas if possible) or various butt splashes. Don’t take the bait to try and punish the splash from more than midrange because it’s a trap. Also, if he buttsplashes just in front of you, quickly flame kick him–he wants you to remain blocking so he gets a free Oichio attempt.
If he walks at you, you can jump in, use f. HK, shallow CW, or Rekka but be mindful of his standing sweep.
You become the Honda and he becomes Fei in turn…a frustrating match.
This will never be an even match for Fei but, by God, you can make those skirt wearing sumos work like hell to earn their wins.
hmmm. I need to try that. I usually spam cw’s to beat the torpedo but that doesn’t work against good honda’s, ie str8, reno, ego and especially thelo. I would also try to rush them down but a blocked flame kick would get me a free headbutt. cw’s would earn me a free ochio. I need to learn to be more patient and have them come to me. I didn’t know that st mp beats hhs and torpedo.
I prefer rapid jabs with st.hp sprinkled in.
Here’s an example of Fei god Noguchi playing it super patiently vs Honda. That’s really the only way to play it. Blocking is your best friend considering that headbutts ridiculously take around 20% life per hit.
[media=youtube]R96QEgojW9w[/media]
[media=youtube]RyscC6-Fq0A[/media]
O.Honda is a bit different though. Hands don’t burst forward and his normals are different.
That said, his torpedo is still bullshit.
That safe lk flamekick is so sexy though.
It’s probably the online lag. Certainly is for Sirlin. It’s extra bad if the key startup frames that tip you off are skipped.
Online honda is stupid.
Yeah, Honda and Balrog are one of the two characters I consider to be easier to fight offline than online since countering headbutts and rush punches are essential to fighting them.
Against Honda, I pretty much step back and forth doing st.HP at random times to prevent my opponent from getting my rhythm down and sneaking a headbutt in between.
[media=youtube]BxYzds4JGao#t=2m49s[/media]
My God yes, ST. HP is like, the best tool for Honda. You can almost stuff anything Honda does with walking forward St. HP’s, anything except Headbutts lol
Wow. Nice.
How do you guys (the three other Fei players) fight Hawk and Gief? I’m just curious to see if there are any things that I can integrate into my game.
I tend to do Neutral Jab or Strong to stuff any jumping attacks they might do.
Against Hawk: If he jumps in at you, have him land on cr.HP. None of Hawk’s jumping normals (Except j.HP) can hit Fei in that situation. Also, if you time cr.HP correctly, the Hawk dive will fly over you if you’re in the correct spot.
Against Gief: The Gief’s I fight like to spam Kick Lariat to stuff Fei’s Rekka attempts. When I do see them doing that, I jump at them with j.HK while they’re in the middle of spinning, then follow up with flame kick to get back to safety.
On paper, we should beat Gief easily. And then you join a player match with snake eyes in it and everything is thrown out the window. But seriously, we have a lot of tools to keep Gief away. If played right, we should be able to stop all of Zangief’s ground advances (running bear grab, walk up lariat, hop, ect…) and stuff all of his jump ins with all of our tools (st.hk, st.mk, st.mp, st.lk, jumping neutral lp, and of course flame kick.) The problem with this match up is one mistake against an elite Gief and your going to be in trouble. A mistake in this match up can be defined as: allowing him to get an uncontested jump in, getting lariated, getting sweeped (even if its a trade), getting running bear grabbed, or allowing him to walk up close enough to spd your normals (Snake eyes specialty). All of these mistakes lead to Gief having a huge advantage and usually leads to you trying to flame kick a grab attempt or block a cross up which leads into spd. Top Geifs laugh at flame kick because if they know your going to do it, they will do nothing and eat it up when you land with a walk up spd. So if you wanna beat the best zangiefs, know your normals and avoid mistakes.
As for Hawk… I don’t play Hawks because there is only like 2 and I rarely get a long set with them to understand the match up in detail. So… can we get more Hawk players please?
Basically 95% of my game against gief is st.hk and st.hp.
Against hawk, there’s a lot of st.lk and deep lk flamekicks for his jumping jab. On the ground against hawk on the ground, its a lot harder due to his cr.mk/cr.hk/cr.mp/st.hk but st.hp is what i use when they stop jumping.
Not sure if this has been mentioned before, but there’s a way to combo flying kick/chicken wing into crouching LP.
Using a crouching Ryu in the corner, have Fei Long do the MK chicken wing right next to Ryu, and it’ll get one hit. The timing is pretty strict but a crouching LP can follow up and it’ll read “2 hit combo”. You can probably imagine the follow ups that come after, but note that if you follow up with a rekkaken, I think the 1st one has to be the LP version or it won’t combo.
MK chicken wing (up close) -> crouching LP
-> rekka string
-> super
-> chicken wing
-> throw
Again, I’ve only tested this in the corner, and with Ryu (I guess Ken should be the same) mostly. Vega wouldn’t connect the rekka, Zangief gets hit twice with chicken wing and I couldn’t follow up.
I couldn’t get a standing jab follow up to work, so perhaps chicken wing ends Fei in a crouch position. But what I’m most interested in is if MK chicken wing gives a clear frame advantage even against a standing and blocking opponent?
Looking at the numbers: the last hit of the mk Chicken Wing lasts 4 frames, and it has 15 frames of recovery. (The other 2 total to 20.) Special moves cause 20 frames of hit stun, (which will start on your first hitting frame) but hit stun is reduced by one after the first hit. Because the last hit of the Chicken Wing extends a little further downward than the second to last hit, certain characters will only be hit by the last hit when they are crouching. Cr. lp has a 2 frame start up, so it is a one-frame link. St./Cl. lp also have 2 frame start ups, but they will miss a crouching opponent, especially the ones that crouch low enough for the 2nd hit of the Chicken Wing to miss. Cr. lp WILL link into fierce Rekkas and the corner isn’t needed, as well.
EDIT: Alright, so looking at it per frame, it looks like (testing against Chun Li) the first frame of the last hit whiffs, then there are 15 frames of hit pause, 2 more hitting frames, 15 recovery, the time until you press jab, 2 frames of start up for the jab, then the jab hits. She stayed in hit stun for 21 frames after hit pause ended, so it’s a 2-frame link. This suggests that it may be possible to link with the other 2 versions as a 1-frame link. Also, because characters that crouch lower will be hit later, it should be easier to do the lower your opponent crouches. For instance, lk and mk usually whiff against Blanka, but he is low enough that you can link off the hk version. Cammy gets hit very late by the mk version, so it should be easiest to link after hitting her.
Thanks for the analysis Cauldrath!
I’ll spare you my thought process, so here’s what I got out of this:
1.The frame advantage you get is dependent on how late the active hitting frames hit the opponent, so the lower they are (your example - Cammy, Blanka), the more frame advantage you have, since the last hit on the chicken wing is actively arching downwards during the 4 hitting frames.
2. Against a standing opponent, whether blocking or not, stun is 20 frames (I’ll assume Chun Li’s 21 is fluke), doing a deep LK or HK version of chickenwing will only give you a 1 frame advantage, MK will give 2 frames.
Hope I’m getting this right. If so, that kinda explains why it “feels” easier to follow up with a LP or HP after a MK chickenwing. I guess I gotta test how high and low the last hit of the MK and HK chickenwing are. But with such a small time frame to execute anything, it’ll probably end up being useful only against a handful of characters.
I never cared about frames before, but being a chickenwing spammer in ST, I wanted to see if there is anything about the chickenwing that could be exploited. I just couldn’t help using the chickenwing in the corner sometimes.
On a side note - I never new how far and fast the HP rekkas are. The 2nd rekka can hit from across the screen. If your execution is fast, the 2nd rekka can stop just short of an opponent. Seems to be just as fast, or faster than the psycho crusher.
What’s the current match up chart consensus with Fei these days?
http://shoryuken.com/f280/consensus-matchup-chart-224161/
Personally, I think it’s a bit out of date.
Oh, and as a followup to the above stuff about linking after Chicken Wing, you get so much frame advantage against Cammy if you hit her ducking with a MK Chicken Wing that you can do cl. hp xx hp Rekkas x 3 to take over half her life in one combo that is actually reasonable to link.
Yeah the Consensus chart needs serious updating.
I’ll post my matchup chart for Fei later.