I’d be surprised if there won’t be significant buffs in other departments but be ready to jump ship if this shit goes through.
I bet they’ll give him more health again -.-
50 stamina to compensate for all those changes most likely.
Those are some terribly harsh nerfs you’ve just suggested. I can’t see why Seth would honestly need any balancing at all at this point, he is just fine.
Think maybe people still don’t know the matchup, which would explain all the “whining”. Seems to always be the case with Seth.
Very disappointed with the direction Capcom is taking with a great many of our characters, Seth being particularly upsetting.
His design as it is now is ridiculous, annoying, goes against many things that street fighter stands for but is hilarious very risky, and ultimately having to take huge risks is the great equalizer in my book.
The best coarse of action to have taken with Seth I think would be to leave him exactly the way he was mostly.
Reducing his stun a little along with the amount of stun his special moves dish out and I would have called it a day.
At least you guys get your yoga sniper back 
I’m curious, are there any areas we can actually provide feedback to the changes? Or voice our concerns? And have there been any Seth mains participating in location tests (if so, what are the impressions)?
I think people are happy with just rage-nerfing him without understanding the statistical challenges he is facing. He has an excellent set of tools, but unlike the other top tiers, his tools have very hard counters and his offensive pressure is almost never safe for him (compared to say, Akuma, Fei or Cammy.) If anything his playstyle will be more focused on laming things out, but if I wanted to play a zoning-type character I’d rather play an actual zoner (i.e. I honestly couldn’t care less about Yoga Sniper.)
While it’s still far too early to say, are there any of you here who’d be interested in sticking with him if the given Ultra changes are final? If so, why, and what would you be looking forward to?
From what I saw at one of the location tests, he still has DP FADC (at least for the first hit, on-hit). If he gets to keep first hit DP FADC on both hit and block, it’s possible I could swallow a lot of the nerfs. Resets are the only guaranteed setup in the game now, and Seth still packs tons of them. Being able to keep DP FADC to reset anywhere on screen is still great for momentum. Seth has never relied on hard knockdowns much anyway apart from SPD, other vortex chars get affected a lot more than he does by hard KD nerf.
Yoga sniper on back jump only is completely worthless, not worth mentioning.
From what I see in the loc test videos, any setups via fullscreen walljump are gone, but the startup and speed of the jump stays about the same, he has maybe around the same range as Ryu’s escape tatsu out the corner atm. Signficant nerf, but at least Seth can still threaten an escape and give himself some space in the corner.
The j.hk nerf really, really sucks, cause this hurts his entire stomp game immensely, and ofc less dmg/stun and less time to confirm isn’t good either. With opponent in the corner, an instant stomp early j.hk is pretty safe and lets Seth land on the ground at plus frames. Now if he has to use j.mk followup (assuming it even hits in that situation), he might be 0 or even negative upon landing.
Divekick nerf is just dumb, Seth has a really nice property of overhead for his divekick, but his divekick has never had particularly good hit/hurtboxes, and it’s been nerfed over and over already. No idea how bad it really is until we get to compare, but this could also kill the character if his divekicks just get jabbed out of for free everytime.
DP invincibility nerf is universal for all chars, but Seth really needs the ability to bully people when he has meter, and these DP nerfs aren’t helping.
U1’s been significantly buffed, looks real easy to antiair with now, and maybe even characters that can change their jump arc or flatout pause in midair (ex.tatsu) have a certain spot where U1 would be guaranteed hit. Safer on block too, doesn’t mean much apart from eating a lighter punish instead of full ultra.
U2 recovery buff means he might actually get to keep momentum via grounded meaties or something (if he even has any real pressure left after gimped DP lol).
Whole bunch of stun nerfs…yep…
Dunno if tanden can’t be cancelled off normals anymore, but this pretty much kills the character too if it sticks.
There’s nothing to look forward to atm other than the ultra buffs. Double ultra would be cool for Seth except his ultras already do shit damage to begin with, landing a U1 with half revenge meter, double ultra selected…that’s gonna be doing about the same dmg as a DP antiair or less, and with no more guaranteed boom tp setup…nope, nothing to look forward to.
Maybe Seth will still be useful for matchups where he does nothing but lame it out anyways. If it’s really the worst case scenario for all these nerfs though, he’ll have literally nothing left over other shotos such as Ken (who’s looking real fucking broken atm, but hey, half screen kara grabs are legit while highly punishable command grabs that do no damage are cheap as hell yo…cya all on the Ken boards?).
Btw it’s no secret among top players that Seth is extremely hard to use. Lowest health, every setup ever works on him, defensive options huge gambles, inability to play any real footsies…there’s a reason why there’s pocket Cammy, pocket Akuma, pocket Fei everywhere, and Seth ofc nowhere to be seen.
Seth players get no respect whatsoever from my perspective. I remember some player compared playing Seth to working at McDonald’s: You learn it in a week and if you do it for seven years, you’re still as good at it as the guy that’s been doing it a week.
This is the real reason I feel like he has been targeted with nerfs and labeled “top tier” even though nobody has had success with him besides Online Tony and Poongko competitively. People just *hate * Seth, and it doesn’t matter that he has huge flaws, just that people hate the way he plays. Play Gen and everyone goes gaga over you. Play Seth and you’re a mashing scrub.
This nerf to j.hk was completely unwarranted. “Nobody else has a good consistent crossup on a heavy like Seth.” So? Don’t take away the unique parts of the character. Adon’s j.mk does 80 damage but nobody bitches about that.
Also the stun nerfs are unwarranted. Ken can hit me twice still and dizzy me. But now SPD isn’t even good for stun! That was the saving grace of his command grab, that it did 200 stun, gave you meter, and set up mixups. It does practically no damage. I literally don’t know what they want Seth players to do, besides lose.
Well, I’m glad I’m not the only one who feels this way. I also agree with the SPD comment, as it was already a super risky move that was offset vs. reward in certain situations when you can get the stun (as you say, no one was using it for the damage.) I honestly don’t think there’s any reason to use SPD compared to regular throw, even (comparing their risk-rewards ratios.)
And yes, Minotaur, while DP nerfs are across the table, his DP is being put in line with the others, which means you’ll trade significantly more than previously (DP trades are rarely in Seth’s favor, I find.) It really reduces the threat of forcing his guesses once he is in (the standard 50/50 SPD/SRK isn’t really something people have to stand and guess for anymore, especially if they have meter. Seth will have to use EX SRK to make sure to beat the enemy SRK [of course, unless you have frame-perfect setups so you’d start yours 1-2 frames after, but with DWU that could also be an issue], while his SPD will lose to that choice, and regular SRK will trade [probably poorly.] People do not have to accept Seth’s guesses at close range.)
I think the j.hk is also a bit, ehh… I mean, he already relies on it a lot not just because of the damage, but the hitstun and stun amount it provides. Removing it as the go-to jump-in means you’re shaving off a lot of his stun output, which he already has no ways of applying outside of close range (i.e. you generally need close normals for his big-hitting combos.) Combined with reducing SPD stun, and I think the end result, on paper, at least, looks very bleak.
I’d be very interested in providing some sort of feedback to official channels if there are ways to do so.
I think we all knew it already a few months ago when Fchamp leaked those Seth nerfs, or heck even when Ultra was first announced; they were going to nerf Seth. Not because he’s actually good, nooooooo.
Late 2011/Early 2012 lots of top players listed Seth within the top 5, often at #1. They couldn’t believe that this “scrub” Poongko was beating them, they weren’t going to admit everyone knew shit all how to fight the character, so they just went with the easy answer “Welp Yun Yang Fei got nerfed (Fei not at all really LOL), AE2012’s gonna be ALL Seth baby, the second coming of AE Yun”.
Almost 2 years later? Poongko doesn’t even want to play anymore (probably sick of the losing matchups vs all the real top tiers), Dashio’s great, wins a few local tournaments but nothing more, Problem X made one of the biggest splashes winning 25th qualifier, and…that’s it really. That’s Seth’s tournament representation combined over basically the entirety of AE2012.
Went way off there, but back on topic, it’s beyond fucking clear that Capcom’s doing this to please the scrubs. Tournament results don’t back Seth (count how many majors he’s won in the past 2 years, heck count how many appearances he’s even had in just top 8), top players aren’t spewing “Seth OP” anymore, top players never even picked up Seth despite how godlike he was supposed to be in this version, not even as a sub for his many good matchups vs low tiers. Oh wait, you don’t see low tiers at tournaments, you see Cammy, Akuma, Fei, Sak, all the shit that trashes Seth and he has to deal with shit matchups all day while people can be ignorant enough to even consider that the matchup vs those chars is somehow Seth favor.
Funnily enough, you look at eventhubs, srk, stream monster comments in the past few months…even the common perception seems to have shifted, and a lot of people are speaking up to say they feel these nerfs aren’t justified. So I have to ask, Capcom, if you’re not nerfing it due to tournament results, you’re not nerfing it because the top players think he’s OP as fk, and even the babies that cried nerf are now reconsidering…what the fuck are you doing? I’m not even kidding, if you’re gonna make a character that already had his share of problems into a steaming pile of shit, just save everyone some time and straight up delete him from the game.
…Well that’s mini rant over.
Thing is, while a lot of people have smartened up about Seth, plenty still see him as a “close your eyes, 50/50, win all games” kinda character, and there’s probably nothing that’s ever going to change their minds since they’re scrubs that will never bother to learn the character or matchup. On the bright side, it’s a nice easy way to identify idiots, so that’s pretty cool.
I could probably go on all day talking about his nerfs individually, but it’s easier to just look at stuff that’s pretty much already set in stone:
- Characters that had problems against Seth, aka his good matchups, all got buffed across the board, and yes, they’re going to stay buffed in the final edition.
- Delay wakeup hurts vortex. It doesn’t affect Seth the most, but it is going to be a contributing factor in turning SPD into garbage.
- Universal DP FADC nerf is here to stay, and yes this shits on Seth’s mixup hard as well.
Good news is I’ve heard that Capcom’s seen how crap they’ve made the character, and they’ve gotten enough feedback that they’ll be retuning Seth again for next wave of tests.
I totally feel the same frustration as you guys!
I don’t want to deny the fact that it’s sometimes really easy to win with seth against players that either
don’t know how to play against him or are just too lazy to learn it but i had to work alot to be able to play him
at a decent level and get to 10k BP.
I share the idea that online doesn’t mean anything but I (and I consider myself slightly above medium level at best)
reached top 30 in europe and that alone gives an idea of how underused the character is.
He is not broken and i’m not understating my abilities. People just don’t play him!
And I don’t know anyone who had the nerves to endure losing again and again to players below their level because the 50/50 backfired.
I play with peope far better than me and they have multiple characters at 15k+ BP but don’t touch him! One even personally told me
that he was surprised I got that far considering I’m the only one he ever met online.
Since vanilla he has been my favorite char and i love that bald motherf*er but you never get respected for anything!
Playing aggressive:
Seth is so cheap! Tier-Whore! Learn to play like a real man and pick low-tier! Two Setups over and over!
Playing defensive:
LoL scrub! Turtling with seth is dumb! Psy!
and that are the “nice” things people use to write.
Firends advise me that I should pick another char because playing only seth can hurt your overall understanding of the game
and make you really limited and i believe it’s true, but i’m having fun and had accepted the fact that i won’t ever make it far with
him tournament-wise. Was somehow even motivated to show them I could.
But now? Nerfed again? Having all the tools but nothing worth to build your playstyle around?
For the first time I really think of dropping him.
Hell I’ll play Hugo! At least I’ll finally be respected for working so hard.
Seth relies so heavily on DP FADC for frame traps and they didn’t give him any other hit-confirmable frame traps when they nerfed his DP. If he had a combo like cr.mp -> cr.mp he’d have a lot more solid offense.
Hey folks,
I’m KingBlackToof, I’ve been modding the changes reported from Location Tests into a downloadable MOD for folks to have a play with.
I’m just working on Seths changes now but would appreciate some clarification on one of them.
The change from 2 different sources:
- “Has Dhalsim’s jump back Heavy Punch again.”
- “Back Jump HP stretches as it did in Super”
In Super Seth could Jump Back and Neutral Jump Stretch Arms, right?
So is this change saying he can do what he could in Super or that he can Do what he could in Super only for his Jump Back this time?
What do you guys think?
Cheers.
It’s only on jump back. In the previous build it did 60 damage, 100 stun, and apaprently it had some extra recovery on landing.
What is Seths’ Triangle Jump?
“Triangle Jump distance has been reduced.”
Fwd.Jump 2HK?
Wall jump.
They should just give Seth a hilarious costume to cement his posistion of a joke character in USIV…! Okay, he won’t be that bad. Capcom seems pretty intent on making him mediocre though; Seth has been nerfed in every revision. I doubt anyone really thinks Seth should have kept his vanilla shit or some of his Super options, but the only reasons AE Seth managed to get by (aside from unfamiliarity/“I refuse to learn this shit”) are the options getting taken from him now. The 800 health/900 stun just made those options less risky. 2012 Seth literally felt like massive buffs, even if the only noteworthy things they did were (almost) giving back U1 and nerfing DP FADC.
I’ve pretty much come to terms that Capcom does not want Seth to be a threat this time so I’ve mostly stopped messing with him. Sometimes I make shitty posts under the influence of Ambien about him but if the forum didn’t archive those, I probably wouldn’t remember that they even exist. DWU is an incredibly hard thing to sell me on so I was already slacking off, but this just isn’t a good look. The only thing that would have gotten me back on the Sagat train is getting taken away (fst.LK), and my initial fallback is getting nerfed too (command grab scaling on Yun? Get the fuck outta here!) So if Yang/Poison/Rolento/magicnewcharacter aren’t fuckawesome fun to play as, I might drop this entirely and just wait on Xrd. I really cannot emphasize how dull two more universal defense options would make this game with words. State change OS possibly remaining not helping at all regardless of that.
The current changes, for those curious, are as follows (as of Capcom Cup 2013 build):
- Ultra 1 hit box increased
- Ultra 2 recovery decreased by 19f, tiny damage buff to the first hit (+6 damage)
- Head stomps have more active frames
- fst.HP is safer (on hit at least)
~ j.MK can now cross-up
~ jump back hard punch is Yoga Sniper (neutral j.HP/forward j.HP are unchanged)
? DP xx FADC, head stomps is still possible - dunno about hit/block rules
? Ultra 1 recovery reduced by 10f, unsure if that’s on hit or on block or both
- Dive kick has a bigger hurt box
- j.HK can’t cross up (hit box changed)
- Wall jump distance reduced
- MK Hyakuretsukyaku and HK Hyakuretsukyaku do 50 less stun
- All SPD do 50 less stun
- MP/HP Shoryuken invincibility reduced by 2f (there is not a universal DP nerf; Gouki and Oni DPs have been nerfed but Oni’s DP will still beat Seth’s)
- something about DP FADC is nerfed.
- Can’t cancel into Tanden Engine off normals anymore (this change just appeared in the Capcom Cup build and it’s a motherfucker.)
They ruined Seth for me as I barely even enjoy the AE version of him and this was the final revision to destroy the enjoyment I had using him.
DP FADC first hit is possible for both on-hit and block. They said they’re making all FADC forward -3, probably applies for Seth too.
U1 seems to have alot more pushback on block (on hit too? this might fix the fireball trade thing). It’s definitely a lot safer, depending on how high it hits and how much pushback there is, this might be a safe reversal up close.
I don’t really care what they do to him, I have no expectations or hope anymore, just posting this info for people that might still be interested.
Seth has been -3 after DP FADC on block since AE 2011. I think when Capcom said they’re giving us the most balanced SF4 yet with USF4, was a blatant lie. I’m not completely disappointed with the Seth changes so far, but since we’re looking at a June 2014 release, means they’re just tweaking whatever moves they feel like between now and then, and going with the most popular results. The community is full of Seth haters, so the nerfs only make sense. It’s just unfortunate I’ll have to learn the character all over again, seeing that they’re bringing back yoga sniper, changing his cross-ups, and removing cancels to tandem engine. That last change makes the least sense to me, seeing that they’re probably going to leave in cancels to SPD, which would more often than not screw me over in a game.
And the nerfed stun off lightning legs and SPD seems pretty bad, since I don’t get stuns as Seth that often anyway.