SF Character Balance Suggestions - Seth

Classic Fighting Games Ultra Street Fighter IV
1

As you all probably know, Capcom is going ahead with version 2013 (announced today). They’re supposedly taking community suggestions for various characters each week for the next several weeks. Assuming they actually GAF about our opinions on the top tiers (majority of which are conveniently squished into week 4), I was thinking the Seth forum here could compile a reasonable list of changes for the character to post amidst the inevitable sea of whining. I think we all agree that there isn’t much of anything that you can nerf about Seth without really hurting him, and he’s strong enough that buffing anything would be over the top. That said, Capcom is likely to make changes to EVERY character, no matter how small, and in that case I’d much rather have them put extra weight on our collective inputs.

Seth Nerfs:

  1. Minus 10 damage from each version of Hyakuretsukyaku
  2. Ultra 1 from 340 damage back down to 300 damage.
  3. Seth STUN lowered from 900 down to 750.

Seth Buffs:

  1. EX tanden engine followup fixed (bug fix)
  2. Buff headstomp hitbox and/or active frames
2

i don’t really like any of those outside of u1

  • 10 damage from hyakuretsukyaku is kind of like “why?” in relation to these particular changes
  • pretty sure u1 has been 340 damage in every version (haven’t sat down in training mode in vanilla for quite some time, granted) except AE where it did 380. probably could use a damage nerf though with how good it is (lets be honest guys this is probably somewhere in the list of “top 5 ultras i would want my character to have” in every version excluding ae.)
  • j.MP damage, while unusually high for a jumping medium, tends to work well with the way the juggles work for seth. 40+20 meter is kinda suspect tho (40+20 + 40 + 32 + 28 + 36 … for the easy version you usually get lol)
  • U1 with full invincibility affects no match ups what-so-ever and the “ease of use” factor increase is so marginal i could probably get more out of making cr.HK active for 3f.

actually i will just say this
if seth is getting any ease of use changes, the first thing you put is “increase head stomp’s active frames or do something with the hit box” or you are trolling =((

personally i’ve grown to like the idea of putting seth’s stun back to 750. put j.hp back with 1 less active frame, take 50 stun off both limbs, shave 10 damage off normal booms, change hk hyakuretsu to 10+130, call it a day!

3

Well the way Capcom likes to “balance” strong characters is nerf multiple things while buffing something useless. I figured that having minor damage nerfs spread out over Seth’s moveset wouldn’t hurt him as much as say, one big thing like losing walljump, the same way he lost air stretchy arms in AE.

Haha it’s probably cause I play a lot of Gats and Ryus (including one really, really good one) that I get miffed at the U1 trade. It happens maybe only 10% of the time, but everytime it does I feel like slamming on the cab and cursing Capcom.

The headstomp nerf sucks, but I seriously doubt they’d be willing to revert it back to its former glory. Buffing hitbox though would be a godsend :smiley:

I really like these, doesn’t hit anything too important (though i <3 my j.hp :()

If they are to buff one minor thing though, I’d like to see SOME use for close mk. The entirety of Seth’s moveset has at least some utility, apart from that move that might as well not exist. Don’t need to make it great like they did with cl.mp, just ONE specific situation where I’d actually choose to pull that thing out would be nice.

4

seth does not have a cst.mk, the game is wrong

also possibly “fix” EX Engine (juggle issue from raw), cst.HK (treated like an overhead…when it’s not), and EX DP (last hit is just fucking random or impossible on some characters.)

random note, i actually think seth should have his dk restriction increased when he does a wall jump. i never liked that from a design perspective (or demon flip…)

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U1 is amazing, even though I can’t utilize it to half of its potential.

Fixing EX Engine would be great. I like using it for covering several escape options at the same time, so the bug is real annoying.

I didn’t play him until AE really, so I can’t say how he played before. I have dabbled a bit in the older versions now, just to see, and if there’d be two things I’d want reverted for a damage cost it’d be the older divekick and teleport. But, I don’t think I’m close to experienced enough to have an informed opinion on the subject matter.

Just to mention, there is one specific situation where you would choose cst.mk over other stuff and that’s from a midscreen jump-in, cst.mk xx FADC xx cl.mp, cl.hp as it does more damage than cr.mk (I’m talking jumps outside of straight up j.hk, cl.mp, cl.hp range but inside of the range where your dash will put you close enough.) given that other normals push you too far away. But that’s about the only thing I can think of.

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EX tanden glitch should be fixed. I could post a video of it if necessary. This should be near the top of the list, just because it’s a glitch on a move that costs 2 bars doing exactly what it’s supposed to do.

Damage nerf on Hyakuretsukyak would be fine.

I don’t want j.hp back at the expense of ANYTHING.

U1 already does the lowest damage of any ultra in the game, besides maybe Balrog’s U2. I would rather have a damage nerf than say more recovery after it connects or more startup. But 340 damage is a little over one-third life for most characters, and it doesn’t combo off of anything besides cr.hp, focus attack and weird 1 hit j.mp.

There’s no reason to not buff all three headstomps to 4 active frames. It was cheap when it caught backdashes and DPs, but 4 active frames would just add consistency. At the very least, buff the last 2 headstomps.

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Would be nice if they did something about the minimum walljump height and divekick, can bait most DPs as it is right now but the timing’s tight. Cammy and Gat laugh at walljump though…

I don’t think any of us would mind having vanilla divekick or tp back, but that’s a bit too much to ask when Seth is already so strong a character now.

Edited first post.

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Let’s be real here. Seth is going to get nerfed, like he always does. Since Capcom is supposedly listening to community input, this is most likely the case. Cammy, Akuma, Fei, and Seth are the ones that I see a lot of people complaining about. Surprisingly, I haven’t seen a lot of Viper hate as of late. I actually like this version of Seth. (Although I wouldn’t mind SSF4 Seth :P)

Is Capcom even aware of the EX Tanden glitch? Probably not. I would actually suggest that Kiku make a video of it and post it in the Unity forums.

I agree with fixing the EX Tanden glitch, but everything else is fine the way it is imo. I understand the hitbox/active frame buff request for the stomps. What I don’t understand is why nerfs are being suggested? Stun down to 750 again?? That was one of the biggest buffs he got in AE. I don’t know about you, but I enjoy not losing when I get hit once. With all of the unblockables that are on Seth, I wouldn’t mind Capcom removing them, which might happen.

greedy buff: better walk speed. Not Akuma walk speed obv. But like Juri or T. Hawk speed.

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Actually Cammy and Akuma are drawing a lot of hate atm. Cammy for obvious reasons, and Akuma cause Infi showed the world how powerful a vortex character combined with an insane neutral game can be. Seth whiners are mostly scrubs now that haven’t taken the time to learn the MU, he’s barely won anything throughout all of 2012. Capcom isn’t going to flatout ignore majors and tournament results. Viper’s been figured out for a long time now, she’s just a weaker version of Sak with seismo. What’s really interesting is if Capcom catches onto the fact that Sak is top 5 in 2012, if they buff her again…

Seth has no representation in high level american tournaments apart from Tony, and while Dashio’s doing nicely in Japan, he’s yet to show up to body anyone at an international tourney (the ones Capcom’s looking at).

We’re suggesting nerfs cause you said it yourself, Seth is going to get nerfed. I’d be willing to swallow a few number nerfs across the board, it’s a lot better prospect than removing something again (like ground stretchy arms) or touching the stuff that matters (ie. dive kick).

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If Capcom’s goal is to “balance” the game, then they should primarily buff the bottom 15-20 so they can pseudo catch-up to the top 15. Reducing damage on Sonic Boom or Hyak doesn’t balance anything. Seth already does tickle damage outside of landing a jump-in / tanden or spending 2 to 3 meters. If they want to bring Seth down a tier or two, they would take away his setups after SPD or something silly like that.

Capcom should look at international tournaments such as the 25th Anniversary Qualifiers. ProblemX won the Europe qualifier and got 9th at the actual 25th Anniversary tournament. Poongko left Totalheads or something to that effect and has not traveled that much. Although, he is slated to be at Final Round.

Viper’s rushdown has been figured out. Her zoning game is one of the best in the game. That aspect of her is definitely slept on. Sakura top 5 after being buffed? I don’t know about that.

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There’s a big difference between what Capcom “should” do (buff the bottom third by alot, leave rest alone), and what we know they are going to do. Hard nerf top, more useless buffs to chars like Dud and Hawk that desperately need something better, current mid tiers swap places with the current top tiers, etc.

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Going from 20+130 to 10+130 is huge, what are you on? Actually going from 10+100 to 20+130 is huge too. Seth hasn’t been doing “tickle” damage since AE dropped really. “I like having 900 stun.” Of course you fucking do. I like having 900 stun too. Who doesn’t like having 900 stun when they had less than that before? But 750 stun and getting some of our tools back is a way better trade off than gutting the character. Which it’s basically going to come down to, I figure (750 stun + some tools from Super, 750 stun + no other changes, or some important tool turns into junk.)

(I only shave damage off of Sonic Boom if j.HP gets put back to help out characters who have trouble getting in.)

(edit: welllll okay 10 damage off is not huge but it is significant)

13

Only way I imagine them bringing back air stretchy arms is if they lowered damage to 40 or 50, stun to 100, and lowered hit/block stun. Gimped, but still better than nothing (would be nice if they made it a command normal though so I can keep current nj/j.hp…)

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They won’t bring back air stretchy arms if they have one functioning brain cell in their head. The move was not overpowered because it did too much damage and stun, it was overpowered because having that hitbox on the screen made it incredibly hard to approach Seth. It doesn’t matter if it does 10 damage and 0 stun, Zangief physically cannot get near you and that matchup goes back to maybe an 8-2.

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nj.HP
mr gief
enjoy

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If they’re serious about nerfing Seth, they’ll ruin SPD by making him land further away or with enough delay to not setup a safe jump.

If they want to tone down Seth, they’ll do like Fei, remove some damage and done.

Personally, I wish Tanden Storm command changed to kicks instead of punches.

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air stretchy hp a command normal. +1 hitstun on cr. mk. -1 start-up on cr. hk. how about that?

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I don’t want any of those buffs, besides maybe the cr.mk thing but that would be broke since you could do like 3 jabs into cr.mk xx fireball FADC to catch a jump.

Stretchy arms made Seth scrubbier. I want it gone for the same reason I want EX Cannon Strike to have more recovery - it’s braindead and just does too much in too many situations. It’s boring.

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the reason i said +1 on cr. mk is because then i would be combo-able into h/ex legs.

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j.HP is less scrubby than OS DP ever was and is. There, I said it. Dive kick has always been scrubbier too if you take vanilla out of the equation (lol wombo trade if someone finally managed to AA it.) If “does too much in too many situations” and “braindead” are the only factors we’re looking at, 900 stun and Ultra 1 seem to fit that bill way better than j.HP did as well.

With regards to Zangief:

Vanilla j.HP was 100% stupid because it was active for literally 8f iirc. No character can deal with that easily. Add classic fireball traps, teleports, DP, wall jumps, fast dive kicks, and what the fuck is this stomps and having a terrible MU with Zangief is pretty much a given. Since he literally despises five of the options Seth had when only one of them needed to be on another character to drive him nuts.

Super Seth was still incredibly annoying to fight, but for all intents and purposes the MU was now tolerable. You still lost damn hard, but Zangief didn’t automatically lose like he used to. j.HP lost half of it’s active frames, Seth lost the lolgg Ultra, his teleport was not as annoying, head stomps could actually be hit despite being active all day, and his dive kick didn’t go nearly as fast.

AE and 2012 Seth are largely more annoying for Zangiefs from what I’ve been hearing and seeing. Zangief cannot kill Seth on a read anymore, no EX GH, he hits harder, and fst.MK practically annoys Zangief just as much as j.HP did. Instead of getting a mix up with a CH knockdown or CH stun for making the read, Zangief gets fst.MP or LP SPD if he’s really fast. I used to ask myself “how the fuck can this MU work without j.HP?” Well, the answer is take a frame off boom, make fst.MK awesome, and then give one more active frame to cr.MK just in case.

With regards to whatever:
4f active is still a bit much for the move but to say the hit box was broken or the damage/stun didn’t matter is ignorant. Virtually no character gets a meterless 200 stun 60 damage on a 3/4 screen AA/poke. Add a fireball to that and Seth could basically lock your stun meter until he finally hit you for a near unscaled combo. Or he could throw a boom, it hits, grab a free combo when he jumps back. That really didn’t need to do 120/250 lol. Hell fst.HP, Boom doesn’t need to do 140/250 either. The hit box was kinda average, it was mostly the active frames making it so good.

Maybe I’m just a scrub tho. I’d rather have the move that only one other character has than get health/stun/projectile buffs. I suppose the move is boring regardless, but I imagine a lot of people prefer to try guessing for a CH j.HP than figuring out what Seth will do when he’s in their face with two bars. I doubt anyone will ever agree 100% when it comes to Seth so it really wasn’t worth typing this out but I’m bored.

Final note with this long ass semi-rant, command normal j.HP would be broken as fuck though. Seth being able to jump forward with stretchy arms? I would probably quit playing.