I can see your point about (possibly) wanting a more offensive/less turtley game, but why target Seth and not Sagat, Guile, Boxer and, to some extent, Ryu (Dhalsim is excluded due to the nature of his character)?
Offensive games stem more from the mechanics of the game and less from the characters. Look at Blazblue CS for instance. In that game, escaping block pressure isn’t as simple as simple as holding db throughout the opponents string and occasionally blocking an overhead (that don’t combo into anything for the most part in SSF4). You have to actively time your back/db inputs and barrier to gain the frame-advantage and pushback (respectively) needed to escape a blockstring.
Capcom should have implemented some form of guard break or defense penalty system if they truly felt that this game should be more offensive. Something as simple as short-hops and jump cancels (with restrictions of course) would have boosted the offensiveness of this game tremendously while still leaving zoning and footsies as viable tactics.
In short, there are much better ways Capcom could have made this game more offensive or “balanced” without nerfing aspects of certain characters that had little effect on the game as a whole and were easy to avoid if people bothered to learn their matchups and tactics (I’m referring to several characters, not just Seth).
Capcom is targeting Sagat specifically already by making his tiger shots have more recovery and making all but his LK tiger knees absolutely useless on block now. LK tiger knee is back to vanilla status so he can rushdown with that better and he gets far s.LK cancel back. Though pretty much anything strong defensively about Sagat is getting toned hard.
Ryu has been toned down a lot defensively too. No more DP trade to ultra BS, no more fireball wait super cancel super, less damage on DP FADC ultra, less damage on DP’s, less priority on DP’s etc. There was that rumor that Guile was not going to be able to build super meter but that’s false now. I’m sure they’re going to do something to Guile now cuz he can basically full screen rushdown with booms now and the better normals easily stop a lot of characters from getting close. Without landing a clean knockdown on Guile he is pretty tough to get in on now. Boxer’s style will probably stay pretty lame but he definitely does a decent job rushing in when he wants to and he doesn’t quite keep characters like T.Hawk and Gief from moving forward the way Seth did.
There’s a lot of what Capcom should have done that gets talked about but that’s all it amounts to…getting talked about. Mainly because the game system as is gets people putting in money after money into the machine and the console version of the game. To them the core mechanics of the game aren’t broke and they aren’t going to mess with those mechanics much when it will most likely completely change the meta game that top players and casuals alike have already spent more than a year learning/using. At this point Capcom just wants to stay on the safe side and change the game through the characters so things can change without changing too much.
I’d kind of like to see Seth get an anti-air tandem vacuum. Just so a Seth player wouldn’t feel like they need to build an ultra, AKA take damage, to make the other player stay grounded. Maybe have like 10 frames of start-up so a person couldn’t just spam it. And maybe only allow c.HP to follow-up or something.
As it stands now, Seth can’t be a zoning character, but I think he still should be able to play like one. j.HP was his best zoning tool, and s.HP is no alternative. If you “know how to footsie” as Seth, you can still zone, but it’s not so effective at keeping a person away.
I suppose I’m just stuck on the fact that most of the SF2 series mechanics are better competitively and more conducive to an offensive game. Despite the fireball,fireball,fireball, uppercut repeat strategy that could be used MUCH more effectively than in the SF4 series, SF2’s blocking and grabbing mechanics were more tailored to offense than defense. The higher amounts of blockstun, lack of auto-block, stricter reversal timing, and non command grabs themselves being option selects (unless you’re the awesomeness that is E. Honda) makes the SF2 system much more offensive than SF4’s.
I’m sure that most players that want an offensive game, hell even those that don’t, would’ve preferred the SF2 mechanics I mentioned in addition to SF4’s focus attack, dashes, combos, juggle system, and of course characters. Obviously, It’s far too late to change basic game mechanics and those who disagree with me will probably just tell me to play the SF2 series because I enjoy its mechanics more, but I believe that there are better ways to balance this game as a whole rather than on an individual character basis.
Every matchup doesn’t have to be 5-5 or 6-4 for characters to have a decent shot at winning a tourney, and if they truly cared about balancing this game they would stop adding all of these damn characters. 25 was more than enough.
Yeah it’s easy to be stuck in the past when u know the past in some ways did things better. The reality is that everyone is playing this game and not that many people are still playing any form of SF2. If you want a game that you can regularly play with a lot of strong competition this is pretty much the only fighting game to do that in now until possibly when MVC3 releases. That’ll probably be the next game to get anything close to the strength of competitive numbers that SFIV has. SFIV just has this vacuum on the competitive scene and you either have to try to find a way to enjoy playing it or like you said…play something else.
I think these changes are so that all the characters in the game are tournament viable, and to make tournament play a bit more exciting by toning down defensive play and making you think and play a tad more offensively. I mean they buffed all the previous “Joke tier” characters like Makoto, Hakan, and guy; and to a lesser degree nerfing some of the more powerful characters E.honda and Abel come to mind.
So the real question is what does that mean for Seth…Personally I hope he does turn out to be a rush down monster of sorts, but that will require a wayyyyy bigger changes than what has been said. Then again this is probably just because no one is playing Seth at the loc tests. Of course this isn’t the final build so optimism is the only thing that can be possible atm, from a balance standpoint the only major changes that I see for seth is more dmg and 900hp and of course vanilla dive kick and perhaps (this one is a stretch) better start up frames/invincibility on lp. Tanden. But to be honest all I want is him to work in the first place…I’m looking at you no ex tanden in the corner/broken U1.
It doesn’t mean they won’t either. They did actually do things to make Gen better even though they made him “worse”. Which is relative considering that every Vanilla character in Super SFIV is basically a worse version of their former selves for the exception of Guile, Bison, Rose and some others. If your Vanilla main (including mine) saw a bunch of tournament finals…they basically got worse and that was it. Well C.Viper’s walk speed did get a bit better and a couple of her buttons but generally she is worse. Which really means she is better because everyone else got worse and she can win matches off of 2 good guesses any way.
It’s also relative to the fact that no one has really been putting any effort competitively into Gen since the big boys dropped him. Which of course will be replaced by Japanese Gen players blowing people up on YouTube Game Chariot/NSB vids as usual.
I noticed something happening to me when I heard of Seth nerfs…
I began to eat salty Pringles… is that normal reaction?
Oh and if they really want to make Seth rush dow character, he better have some safe ways of closing the gap (was not issue before since he can force the other to come to him), better SPD and slightly safer lightning kicks (something like -3 or -4, instead of -80), so if somehow I miss combo, i lose 40% instead of 70%. Basically I hope all of his rushdown options gets buffed noticably, and slight health and damage buff, as well as Vanilla Status Stun damage to encourage offensive play.
Edit: Like wise to Sabin, I have full respect to all Seth players who still maintain (some) good spirit, and for Kanta-Kun for great avatars to change the shady mood :D.
A realistic part of me is thinking he either has, or will have more follow-ups to forward j.MP… so players will be more inclined to jump forward, rather than backward.
Oh and maybe they took out his j.HP because Necro’s joining the cast… that’d be tight.
His EX Tanden does that. Only thing is is that you’ll whiff the second hit every time if you try to combo afterwards. They should just fix it so it doesn’t.
I fucking mained him since the first month vanilla came out and then super came out 