While TVC does look like a great spectator game, I’ll definitely wait until I play it free at some tournament before I pass judgement. Personally, I don’t own a wii, and have no reason to own it. One game isn’t going to compell me to buy any system, and I’ll get a PS3 soley for SF4, but it freakin SF4!
Anyway, I’ve been following this game’s developement almost since the day it was announced. And since back then, I complained about the universal air dash mechanic of the game. To me this somewhat homogenize each character and make them play a lot, and the differences in each character are maybe timing of combos. I was hyped as hell for Arcana Hearts until I felt the game forced me to play a certain way. From what I’ve seen on gameplay videos of TVC, it really looks like both players as fishing for pokes, and with the airdashes it just become a mindless poke and rush fest. This is what it looks like, and if the game plays like this, it certainly is more akin to Arcana Hearts than MVC2 or Guilty Gear.
Guilty Gear has gattling combos, but it doesn't appear like all your damage options always come off a dominant ground poke or string. And also special can actually be used for more than just combos. You can actually, gulp, zone with them. What a radical idea. Every doujin-style game is really just a poor man's Guilty Gear anyway. And I'll take the neg rep for saying that, because doujin-style games are lazy in design anyway.
They are lazy due to the fact instead of testing move properties, priorities, and the game’s physics, they instead cover this up with giving everyone similar mobility, damage scaling, and a burst mechanism. At least GGXX had a balanced burst system where it filled up by taking damage and it was an independent meter from your tension. Other games make it easy to build meters, and it allows you to combo break pretty easily.
I mean, we all know that mathematically, homogenizing each character will make a game balanced. Like SF1 was balanced because both characters were indentical. But balance issues crept up when they started giving characters defining characteristics, and it became a nightmare to balance. Now game developers don’t want to bother taking the time to balance things, so let’s just make damage scaling insane and allow people to build up tons of meter just for breathing. Yeah, you can mathematically eliminate balance issues and infinites by doing this, but to me it’s still lazy.
Which is why I’m glad SF4 came out when it did, and I hope that game remains balanced so it will show these lazy doujin game designers what happens when you put effort into a game.
Branh0913@ Well for some who yet to play this game but try to base off other game is a little baize?
Sure this game borrow elements for doujin games as well as other fighters. Most game company do that now these days. Its how all this thing get blended in is what defines the game.
I dont know what you dont like about doujin game but me being a fighting gamer fan. I appreciate doujin games a bit more than most main stream because they always seem to do a better jobs of some of their games.( or at leats I have fun with them)
Now if you would allow some one who has played the game and even own to clarify a few things that would be great.
Okay one thing I like to say is giving every one universal option is key element in balance. If few thing were discriminate amongst characters strictly than balance would be less achieve IMO. Theirs the fear of some character playing the same too, how ever character creativity should come up in strategy.
If you think a fighting game are not about pokes than you seriously should reconsider what type of games you like to play. Almost every strategy revolves pokes.
TvC Pokes are crucial but not the dominating game play. Baroque act’s like roman cancel and Force roman cancel.
Me and my cousin play a completely different play style and its kin to who we play as well.
He primarly uses Ryu and Alex, while I use Bastu and the dude from Onimusha. Now the first thing we realize that ryu and bastu are very similar and yet different at the same time. we both have same commands input that does the same but different effect.
Ryu fireball is large and travel vertically very slowly and can be done in multiple recession in the air to zone.
Bastu fire ball is just as slow and doesnt travel as far as ryu but its powerful and cause knockdown. Bastu can also throw his fireball in air in downwards angle making it mush safer projectiles since the fire ball range leaves me less open. The knockdown effect also helps for oki games.
No, the point of this thread at first was a close-minded attempt to perpetuate a really horrible rumor/troll that the Japanese suck at MvC2 and therefore made TvC the way it is because they want a game they can win at. Read the thread again.
That’s because both games lack a true zoning/keepout factor because:
1- High-level Marvel is dominated by the characters with the most movement options(8w airdash, tridash, etc) or the ability to cover those angles(Cable, the various AA/top tier assists), removing a zoning game in the traditional SF sense.
2- GG punishes excessive turtling, and in any case, everyone has SOMETHING to do, so there’s never any really dull moments. In GG there’s no reason to really WAIT for the other player to do something.
Even though I know you’re trolling I’ll bite, Magneto’s game revolves around getting a high damage throw? :lol:
People keep talking about universal AD ruining a game, but fail to remember that 2 of the most played characters in Marvel share EVERYTHING except one thing(Mags doesn’t have slowfall).
As for AH, even with universal AD and other universal systems, there are a lot of archetypes still in the game, such as a viable keepaway character, and a true, worthwhile grappler. At first glance the characters seem “homogenized”, but every character has their own flavor. However, isn’t MvC2 in certain matches the same thing? I can play this game too, “from gameplay vids I’ve seen of MvC2 all it is, is rush/fishing for poke fests, but with assists instead of your point character having to do shit half the time, and with the chars with tridash they can just jump all over the majority of the cast”. Doesn’t sound right, huh?
Most of the doujin games you complain about have specials that are used as combo starters, AA, whatever you’d use specials for in other games as well. What a radical idea. Actually playing a game instead of going off of vids. And it’s funny, because one of the biggest doujin games has gotten more attention, testing, revisions and love than MvC2 did when it was in playtesting. You’re starting to sound really bitter here.
Let’s break this down.
“They are lazy due to the fact instead of testing move properties, priorities, and the game’s physics,”
-A lot of these games get the same playtesting that commercial games do, and in some cases more, because they’re not confined to a single release. OTOH, we accepted Capcom’s initial releases as gospel, even when in multiple instances they released an adjusted version that all communities shitted on. Even when there were game breaking glitches, and goofy move properties, and fucked up priorities, and even incorrect physics.
“they instead cover this up with giving everyone similar mobility, damage scaling, and a burst mechanism.”
Wrong.
-Similar Mobility
Even in games with universal AD(and even those that have most chars with AD), there’s different AD properties per char, and even then, unless they made a whole bunch of pallette swaps, air attacks have different properties.
-Damage Scaling
You’re seriously trying to put this as laziness? CAPCOM DOES THE SAME THING.
-Burst
This is to counteract anything that may have slipped through the cracks. If there are any infinites after all of the other failsafes and testing they’ve done, then burst gives you a shot of getting out. And to balance that so you can’t do shit like in MKvDC, most simply buy you some breathing room, and cost meter/have
their own meter.
What was Capcom’s answer for long combos in the Marvel Series? Dizzies. And in MvC2, "un-"dizzies, which have been made obsolete thanks to doing a super before the break point.
You mention GG, but what are these other games where you build meter for breathing and can combo break all the time? I honestly would love to know, because for the most part it seems like you’ve been talking out of your ass. Protip: AH’s burst has nothing to do with meter as far as escaping combos. So don’t try and use that again.
[citation needed]
You keep saying developers are lazy, but you never drop names. Who are these awful people that make these shitty slapped-together games, yet are making money off of it?
Doujin games are hot right now. A lot of them are in arcades and getting arcade releases. So if doujin style games are selling that is what type of games companies are going to make.
Branh, you should listen to Saotome about the design issues. You are way, way, way off base suggesting that designing a balanced fighting system is somehow lazy in comparison to trying to balance the characters. Either way, it takes a great deal of effort to make a solid, balanced, competitive fighter.
You’ve got to look at things from a realistic perspective. If your studio has 10 QA testers for your fighting game and they work on the game for a year, you get about 20,000 hours worth of testing work out of them. The majority of that time is spent working out crash bugs, resolving major glitches and regressing issues from previous builds. Developers will continue to tweak character properties all the way to the end of the development process, incorporating feedback from their QA team and any focus testers used in Alpha/Beta stages.
Now, you release that game and let’s say you sell 20,000k copies in the first week (a modest number). Assuming that each of those copies is played for at least one hour each, you will easily surpass the total QA time with a title within the first few hours of its launch. In the first weekend after the launch, the game will be “tested” by consumers in an order of magnitude greater than any game developer could possibly hope to spend on their title. Even if you double your QA efforts and dedicate another team of 10 testers just to playtesting, you can’t come close to testing the game the way the consumers will once it goes live.
So no matter how much you test your title, you cannot hope to know everything about it that the consumers will know in a few days after launch, unless you make your game incredibly shallow (and even then its not necessarily possible). So you can try to balance the game, spend a huge portion of your development budget on it, get it out in the wild for public demos and beta programs, and you could still end up with a broken character. You could still miss a single combo or attribute that makes a character untouchable. The players, who have the benefit of the internet and far, far, far more assets than you, will quickly discover things your testers would never catch or consider and spread that knowledge to the rest of the player base, who will all go “Duh, this is so simple. How did the devs miss this one?”
So the best decision for most developers is to design a system that promotes balance, or at least creates an escape hatch when one character or option is too powerful. This isn’t laziness on the developers part, its their honest effort to give you what you are looking for. You want balance and a good competitive fighting system. They need to finish a game on time and on budget that will sell enough copies to keep them in business.
You can kick and scream all you want, but unless you’ve worked in game development, you can’t even begin to argue that its “lazy.” And, to focus more on the topic at hand, its absurd to assume that Capcom made TvC because Japanese gamers were bad at Marvel. This game, with these characters, at this time, for this market, on this budget made sense. It’s not what people wanted from MvC3, so I guess its a good thing its not MvC3 or pretending to be.
IAD for everyone doesn’t ruin the game but it makes it much more bland. Also in my opinion the Vs series is being changed in favor of the Japanese market aka we suck at VS games crowd.
I read through the thread and alot of the statements are valid, but it seems when it comes down to it this game is much more Japanese friendly. And you can’t say its not a Successor to MVC2 because in the previews it was hyped as the next “VS” game (so yes its a successor to mvc2) It’s being changed in favor of there style of play instead of just something brand new like ALL the marvel/vs games haven introduced.
TVC doesn’t really introduce anything new, infact it goes a step backwards in some case’s. We now have burst/mega crush to prevent infinities which have become a staple in VS games (love it or hate it) and Roman cancels/Vism. Snap back’s, assist and zoning are next to useless in this game (so far) And there is no over all new feature or mechanic.
It favors the Japanese and there style of play, plain and simple. Will it spill over to MVC3 or the next vs game for “America and the reset of the world”? Hopefully not.
Wow, way to ignore basically every other statement in this thread besides the OP’s.
Japan doesn’t suck at Marvel… they just don’t LIKE Marvel, so they don’t play it.
Also, you do know this game was not designed to go outside of Japan, right? They made the game for Japanese people, and the trends of fighting games are dictated by Japan, because they’re the only strong force in fighting game development. If japan likes air-dashing (which they do), it’s not going away.
Accept that things change, and it’s not out of spite for your love of old games, it’s because if they made another game EXACTLY like Marvel, nobody would buy it. Sure, the Marvel crowd would spend money on it, but that accounts to a few thousand in sales… not the million+ sales they’d need to fund the endeavor.
EDIT:
tl;dr: Are you really trying to blame Japan for making a game (that’s only going to be released in Japan) fit what the Japanese like?
I dont buy that we dont like marvel trash, the japan play every single fighter to come around. They also enjoy marvel, not saying its the most popular but its def not hurting there.
I know perfectly well that it wasn’t designed to go outside of japan hence why it’s bad for coming installments of the vs series. All the marvel/vs games have added something new to the series. TVC doesn’t (I lie, air tagging) Anyway the game is much more Doujin like.
I have no problem with change But TVC isn’t that much of a change outside of the IDA for everyone, If the majority of the SF cast didnt have IAD would we even be giving TVS this much attention?
I dont want another mvc2 with new characters. I want something brand new added. What i dont want is mvc3 with everyone in the cast IAD trying to land a launcher.
Japan only has like, 5 Marvel players at Mikado, iirc. Other than that, they don’t like the game at all. It’s not their cup of tea. What’s so hard to understand about that?
The game has small elements from GG and Arcana. But the rest is all just like MvC1 and MvSF.
Uh, yeah. The game is still new and there are a shit ton of ground combos to be discovered.
What was the purpose of making TVC? Explain to me that, if the VS series isnt as popular in Japan as it is in the USA, Why make a VS game so strongly influenced with popular Japanese characters and remove everything that made it “popular” outside of japan while adding IAD and Roman canceling?
Looks like its suppose to be Japanese friendly to me. Which would be the obvious answer seeing the characters and what not. Also i hear this game isnt that big over sea’s as of now either. So all this and were still the one’s who are most excited over this game.
My main concern is that when we get a new Vs game, is that its not influenced by this game mechanics which obviously are put in with Japanese players and game taste in mind. And when we do get a new VS game its more in line with what we like here.
Uh, maybe because it’s made in Japan for sale in Japan only?
…and don’t go off saying because we’re going to play it, they should cater to us. No. They don’t give a flying fuck. I’m sure North American games show just as much care for the Japanese.
And it’s funny, because one of the biggest doujin games has gotten more attention, testing, revisions and love than MvC2 did when it was in playtesting. You’re starting to sound really bitter here.