Agreed
That is true, and why GG is a good fighting game and not a bad fighting game. However, that’s not the point I was making at all, which is that GG-type games repel new players from the FGC in a way that other fighters do not.
Also, you are right in that some minimal level of execution is needed, or you get CvS2 EO. However, most games go above and beyond that level of execution. As for beating fuzz throws and ETEG’s in VF, just pick Jeff. A well placed low throw to beat a predictable fuzzy or CH K+G into combo to punish an ETEG makes people play honest again.
The issue is, to get to that point where the game becomes satisfying, you have to spend a lot of time making sure you can get the cancels down and such. In that case, using rational economic logic- why would a new player get into GG when they can get into another game instead which has a much easier initial learning curve, and a same or similar enjoyment curve once you get into high-level play. The utility one gains from high-level play in a good game is mostly determined by the players, not the game. (This comes from experience with playing several different games at a strong level)
(one assumption in my argument which I will point out and explain. I am making the assumption that there is nothing inherent about GG to attract players that other FG’s lack. This is obviously not the case. I’d make the argument that when it comes to GG’s popularity- those factors would still be intact that cause GG’s popularity, if the gameplay was different.)
At this point it’s truly a case of a different mindset.
It is true a larger fraction of the beginner mind wants to actually feel a noticeable sense of progress. So human nature takes place, they’d rather pick up the one where they can get to a certain level fast. This is a very broad outlook of the whole thing.
Coming from the east where our culture lies in the strive for good performance. The mindset in approaching new things can be different though. I, myself, always fancy a challenge and appreciate people who exhibit mastery in their interests regardless of what it is other than fapping.
This is why I did make a remark about this when building the local scene. SFIV/STHD and SC/Tekken will do it’s job in catering well to a huge number of people and expand the scene. The numbers will serve well in raising the overall standard and the like. It also does it’s job well in motivating a number of people to get into the mindset that well made fighting games do require effort.
On the other hand, Guilty Gear Accent Core, Virtua Fighter and the like are more for the people who are interested in the genre and would like to see what other games have to offer. However, the rewards offered in the effort spent in playing a character against a strong opponent will be very satisfying. Especially that these games have more intricate systems.
I tend to view the fighting game community as a 1 whole thing while the games are the little components that make it up. Understanding the ways of how the games are played can actually help me direct and point my crowd to the desirable direction.
The point you state about Jeffry shows that advanced techniques are not the all out solution to maintaining a place in high level play. Though the point I’m making is the need to learn it. Look at Aoi, even if she’s more lenient when it comes to disadvantageous situations, those defensive manuevers still play a role. In fact these manuevers can help conserve the usage of her reversals making them more effective in the long run. 
To me reaching this point is like alright I’ll have to nail down Sol’s Gunflame FRC much more consistently so I can keep the opponent guessing much better.
It is a different mindset, I agree with you entirely here. I hope you’re right on SFIV, and I think you will be.
Games like GGAC have a place in the FGC, as a change of pace. The FGC can’t survive on just Arc-style games though.
Ok, here’s a post without the attitude.
Ok, so you say GG has hurt the industry tremendously…right. GG is probably the reason 2D fighting games are even making a comeback in this day. GG has encouraged many games yes, you recognise this but you are jumping over the positive fact that GG has actually inspired so many games to actually come out.
Why do you think they came out anyway, and why did they take influence from GG? GG actually built a free and accessible system. It built a fighting game formula that can be constantly emulated, expanded and pushed further…and no doubt these games are popular (let’s talk about japan for now). The constant release of new doujin games in Japan proves this; some fail, some triumph, but they are still being made.
Arc and SNK have been constantly releasing new games despite the ‘condition’ of the FG scene. They have pushed and pushed and finally the work is paying off, but it seems like it will only take a new SF game for the fighting game genre to be recognised as having a rebirth :rolleyes:
Capcom are obviously more financially stable than Arc, considering that they have much better success outside of Japan than Arc does…why had they not released or updated any fighting games for a such a long period of time? They waited until it wa safe; meanwhile Arc and SNK were taking all the risks, though they were accompanied by the influx of Doujin games and those which were successful enough to make it to the arcades.
Anyway, my point is. How can GG’s success have tremendously hurt FG’s when it has helped to inspire and keep them alive for so long? Now obviously, things can have both positive and negative effects…you mention the negative effect being that the games that were inspired by Arc just aren’t newbie frinedly. Let’s adress that…
First off, let’s make it very clear that the dedicated hardcore fanbase is just as important as the casual market. Casuals may buy your game, but they won’t necessarily support it. They can just as easily hurt the games reputation by word of mouth; by saying negative or false things when they don’t have a clue what they’re talking about. The Hardcore fanbase will always buy your games; they provide you with the right information and feedback from loketests or previous versions of the game; they hold tournaments for your game and give it much exposure. With casuals, your game could be popular in one installment, but a complete failure in the next.
Secondly, now matter how easy you make a game, THINGS WILL NOT CHANGE. Here are the facts that will not change:
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There will always be someone who will take the game further, and there will always be those who can’t handle that. The former are the hardcore, the latter are the casuals.
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Now matter how easy it is to get into a fighting game, it’s just as flipping easy to get out. casuals don’t give a crap…they’re called casuals for a damn reason.
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The easier you make a game, the easier people lose interest.
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How many people are actually completely new to fighting games? Very few. Those which are, are either new to games themselves or simply aren’t gamers.
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A developer can only do so much to make someone want to keep playing their game; the final decision lies with the person playing. Every fighting game is simple, they aren’t RTS’s; they have a simple purpose and a simple method…deplete your opponents life bar before they do yours. Everyone can hit buttons, everyone can mash, everyone can play.
A game is only as hard as the player makes it. If someone chooses to put in more effort and take the game further than you, that is their choice and you cannot lambast them or the game for that reason. You too have that option, we are all human, we are all capable. Those who don’t simply don’t have the will power and may never achieve so.
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As long as fighting games require two people (and if they don’t, then they’re basically beat 'em ups like Streets of rage) for the base enjoyment, there will always be an obstacle that will either put you off or make you keep going. That obstacle is another human; you know a species that you also fit into.
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Two newbies playing each other can always enjoy themselves for a period of time, no matter how complicated and intricate the games system can get. Should they choose to stay at that level, which they have the right to, they will enjoy themselves.
But they will eventually come to one of few situations. One of the two (Dood A) decides that he wants to win (SHOCK HORROR), so he will do more in order to achieve that. He may then come the next day and beast on his friend (Dood B). His friend would do one of two things…he would either quit playing, or he would retaliate.
Then the next day, this Dood B will bring some new things he learnt in his own time (he wants to surprise his friend, and also doesn’t want his tactics clocked) and either beast on Dood A or give him a real hard time. Dood A will then feel threatened and seek to elevate himself even further, so the next day he comes having learnt and practiced more shit. Then Dood B will retaliate.
It then becomes like a game of pong. Both Dood’s are ascending in alternation. They are hitting the ball back and forth, back and forth and the ball is getting faster and faster. Eventually they will look back and discover the massive distance they have travelled; they can no longer play pong on a slow ass setting, only the fastest will do. These guys become strong and competitive players, and they will continually seek out to get better, they don’t want to hit a point where things can’t go any further. They want a game that allows them to continue; they want a game that allows them the freedom to use their mind in tyhe way they want in order to trump the opponent. They want there to be enough complication for one to always have the ability to triumph over the other.
Next situation. Dood B quits playing, Dood A stops with him. The story ends here.
If the game is nice, easy and accessible as you say…
Dood B quits playing, Dood A finds others and continues without Dood A. His joruney to defeat the demon king starts. Dood B then traverses the down the road of Scrubdom, eventually reaches what he thinks is a cool bar ‘From Scrub til Dawn’, and is then devoured by vampires. Tragic.
Dood A and B keep at it but realise the game is shallow as hell and can’t be taken any further and ditch the game (exactly the sort of game you’re talking about). Or they just mess about with the game a little and forget about it. They may play it every now and then when others come over. They’d most likely sell that trash to a gamestore for some trade-in value tbh.
- A scrub is a scrub is a scrub. Once a scrub, always a scrub. No matter how easy the game or what you do, some people just won’t play. So making a game that caters only to scrubs is a lsoe lose situation.
Making a game that only caters to newbies will not allow them to elevate from the rank of newbie, because the game is too shit and shallow.
- Take a game that is very easy to play. It’s easy to play right? Ladidadida. Everyone agrees it’s easy. Then add a tail called ‘depth’ to the end of that cheesy critter, what, it suddenly becomes hard? That’s messed up logic. It’s the exact same easy game. Think of the depth as a lego block…you can take it off if you want to, and you can add it when you feel ready. Just don’t be a bitch when you see someone has built a bigger lego tower than you.
Thus, a no matter how easy the game actually is to get into, people will make the mistake of thinking that it must also mean it’s easy to become a top player. And I must say :nono:
I’ll reiterate. Every fighting game is easy to play. You hit buttons, and things happen. If you want to do a fireball, you will learn it. just how you learnt how to speak, how to walk, how to feed yourself, how to dress yourself and how to flipping understand shit.
EVERYTHING requires a learning process. You can hit forward and a button to do a fireball…doesn’t mean it’ll hit, and doesn’t mean you’ll be eternally entertained like toddler in a Disney Lan run by Michael Jackson.
No matter how easy it is to do these things…they will never be amazing…why would they? Everyone can do them.
So let’s talk about something, what we need is for people to be enticed into playing a game…right? Did Third Strike not do that? And how did it do so? By parries, that’s how…something that definitely isn’t noob friendly.
I mean, did SF not do that? And how did it do so? Through people discovering the fireball and the dragon punch, which seemed like this secret special technique, and it got people interested. And just so you know, I’ve read up quite abit on SFII history and how all that stuff began. I can’t remember which poster here posted that epic story about SFII, but it was a great read and I learnt alot from it…and you know what? It only serves to prove you wrong, ironically.
The first time we all saw a super, did it not amaze us? Did the fact that it had a specific motion not intrigue us?
So now, when a game like BB comes out and it actually has a single button dedicated to specials…that’s not noob friendly?
Anyway, so what catches peoples attention and entices them, as we have so discussed? New things, things that are amazing…and amazing things are not easy, everyone knows that…especially the newbies. If the Daigo parry was something anyone could do, it definitely wouldn’t be what it is today…it wouldn’t even get the time of day.
The only people that won’t play a game because they think it’s hard are NOT the new guys! The only people that think in this manner are people who are actually familiar with fighting games. Newbies don’t know shit…because they’re new. They’d simply see something flashy and be amazed.
And there is no such thing as a gamer who is new to fighting games…because every gamer is familiar with the legend that is Street Fighter! Your whole arguement was void from the start. And even more so, because you’re mainly referring to gamers outside of Japan…but you still generalized.
The reason other gamers and casuals won’t become enticed at a game other than SF, is because games other than SF outside of Japan have the publicity of a hikikomori’s hidden bunyon. That, and the fact that videogame journalists are mostly flipping scrubs that have no clue what they’re talking about; and they mislead these people. And count the fact that SF is so popular now that gamers don’t look elsewhere, and they aren’t made to either.
Don’t you get it? Did you play DOA4 online when it came out? Don’t you remember the hysteria and excitement the newbies and casuals generated about Hayabusa’s 360 Izuna Drop and Hayate’s multi-hit throw? Haven’t you flipping watched GCS and seen the casual crowd (who don’t know shit about FG’s) go wild everytime DOAMaster would whip out an Izuna? Or when somebody whips out an extensive combo? You’re just assuming shit man.
SFIV appeals more to the masses because it’s SF…AND THAT’S IT.
Hell, probably the best ST player in Europe (now retired from ST and tournies for all games), playing ST for 15 years, says that GG is an easier game than SF and he recently considered the GG series to be the best FG series ever made, even over his beloved ST. (he lurks here btw, if you’re reading this…sup, lol)
SFIV is also a perfect example of your bane. People are doing combos, set-ups and other shit that would, according to you, put these ‘new guys’ (who don’t even really exist) off…
You realise how flawed your arguement is? GG has the same motions SF does, hell, even EASIER motions (Potemkin Buster isn’t even a 360, remember?!)…THE ONLY DIFFERENCE, is that GG has more depth…meaning it simply allows people to go further! If SF became as intricate and flexible as GG, people would still play it…they wouldn’t moan as they do now about GG.
Fact is, both SF and GG have levels you can reach, in which these ‘new guys’ (that don’t exist), will be put off.
And that’s all I have to say, I ain’t writing another essay.
“When I attack their ain’t an army that can strike back” -Nas
…aka, when you expect a reply from me, you best be expecting a beast of an essay. And you better read it all.
Actually, the reason it isn’t surviving, is because it’s only surviving on SF. So all other games become somewhat obsolete.
good wall of text 
If you play a multiplayer game nothing is newb friendly. Some guy is going to eventually beast on you and make you feel like a newb. No matter how easy or how hard the controls, someone will be really good.
Dumb question: Whats GGPO?
An online fighting game emulation service, heralded as the savior of online fighting games because of (mostly) lagless peer-to-peer capability. Google it yo
Yeah, I meant to have US in my original post. Still, the game didn’t even sell that well in Japan, which it was targeted for.
Aion:
> Capcom are obviously more financially stable than Arc, considering that they have much better success outside of Japan than Arc does…why had they not released or updated any fighting games for a such a long period of time? They waited until it wa safe; meanwhile Arc and SNK were taking all the risks, though they were accompanied by the influx of Doujin games and those which were successful enough to make it to the arcades.
This is inaccurate. Capcom didn’t wait until it was “safe”, because there IS no “safe” time to make a fighter. When fighters as a whole start making bank like they did back in the 90s, that would be a safe time to make a fighter. That time is certainly not now. The fact that so many are coming out now seems to be more coincidence than anything else. Ono said he had to beg Capcom since 2005 to get them to greenlight SFIV, and it was only after they saw the success of HF on Xbox Live that they finally caved in and agreed to do it. SF is coming back because Capcom finaly decided to get up off their ass and do it and because their own beancounters were finally convinced a new SF game could make a profit, not due to what other companies were doing with other fighters. Though if you had to pick another fighter that I’d say was inspirational for Capcom (or perhaps just Ono), it would be Battle Fantasia, and that was entirely due to the way it looked, not the way it played.
Also, ArcSys was taking some risk initially with GGXX, but not Sega. Sega only has Virtua Fighter now (when was the last time they made a non-VF fighter?), which has had a near monopoly in JPN fighting game popularity since, I dunno, VF2? Releasing VF4 updates and VF5 is not a risk to them. The arcade industry in Japan is in decline, but not to that extent (yet?).
Likewise, the risk factor for the doujin games isn’t as great as you make it sound. Their native market made it feasible. They may or may not be hugely profitable, but they’ve obviously doing enough to get by. We don’t know their profit margins, but it would safe to assume they’re not on the level of Tekken or Soul Calibur, two of the few fighting game franchises that have done well outside of Japan in the past 10 years.
Anyway, while I don’t agree that GG has hurt the industry, I wouldn’t say it especially helped it either. In Japan, it’s just another style of fighter, along side the likes of Tekken, VF, KoF, and various flavours of SF games. Neither GG nor GG-style games have had any huge success outside of JPN arcades, or indeed, not had much effect outside of Japan, period. Simpler console fighters like Naturo and DBZ games have had much more commercial success than GG-style games.
That said, I dunno where the idea that GG is somehow harder or less-accessible than SF came from. I consider that game to be very easy to get into. Especially GGXX (the first GG I took seriously; really didn’t like GGX), where you can go hog wild with Sol and the game makes you look like you know what you’re doing. The game as a whole has a big mash-friendly quality to it which SF lacks (which I think is a bit of a drawback in SF).
re: newbie-friendliness
I think you’re confusing something here. I don’t think anyone said that you had to remove depth while making a game easier to play. I do agree there should be a certain minium threshold of execution for a fighter, but you can still make games have ease of play at all levels. I think it’s as important to give a player a sense of progression as it is to ease them into a game, especially at the beginning. But accessibiliy and ease of use have nothing to do with depth.
I’m not going to go over the mountain of text- so I’ll just touch on a few points (and you did make some good ones), also Ultima made some replies I would have made.
I do think the big thing you are failing to do is differentiate between TACTICAL depth and STRATEGIC depth. Generally, tactical depth is something only a hardcore can do- strategic depth is something that is even harder to do well, but anyone can see it.
Not all videogame journalists are scrubs- I’ve played a couple who are quite competent.
Andy Park for Gamespot was a top US SNK player for years. The issue is the target audience for gaming reviews are scrubs who don’t know whether to get the game or not. Good players tend to know what they want.
BTW I wouldn’t call GG controls easier then SF controls personally, as I’ve seen some of Dizzy’s command motions. Command motions should NEVER be unnecessarily difficult. This is across the board for all companies. Capcom has improved in this area- 3S motions and combos were easier to do then Alpha and ST.
The people who are rejecting the fighting games are those who have the skills, and would enjoy them, but they have things like work, and responsibilities, that keep them from putting 3-4hrs a day into a game. I used to be able to do that, not anymore. (except for today, which is my day off pretty much) So my argument is just as much about not decreasing the base as it is increasing the base.
Some of this I guess is just the new-school/old-school divide. A lot of old-schoolers couldn’t keep up, but some can. Always beware the cranky old vets, they come up with stuff you wouldn’t think of. I’ve beaten tons of execution monkeys online and in tournies just by out-thinking them.
BTW you really do overestimate how familiar new-schoolers are with fighting games. I do know some people I have met who are Americans, play video games, and never played a SF game. They knew Halo and/or WoW inside and out though. A couple may have played Tekken.
While I agree a scrub is a scrub, there are different types of scrubs. I’ve seen people who can do infinites, 90% combos up their ass, but don’t know how to get that first hit in. That’s a scrub. Those sorts of scrubs have it much easier in a game with IAD, quick ranged lows that allow them to get that first hit in randomly.
On point 5, you make a point, but you forget that there’s another option out there. Games are elastic goods (in the economic sense). This means that if you don’t like something, there is something else. If you hate VF, there’s Tekken. If you hate GG, there’s SF. Companies do not have the goal of making the best game. Their goal is make the most profitable game. This is something I’ve noticed a lack of understanding from gamers in general, not just this scene. They don’t understand sometimes that the companies have to make a profit. This is why increasing the base is most important, it allows for more games to be profitable, which encourage more games to be made.
One counterpoint, SFA3 was probably the most complex SF ever created, and it was complained about heavily.
Part of the reason I get so down on all the GG-dervied games is that I’m afraid history will repeat itself somewhat- in the 90’s, all the SF2 clones caused a negative reaction to fighters as “all the same thing”. I can easily see that happening again.
In the end, I gotta give you credit. You did come up with some good points and you aren’t just the whiny kid you gave a first impression of being. You should show this side of yourself more often and drop the random calling of people idiots- all you do is get people mad at you and wanting to make an example out of you.
The vast majority of commands for specials in GG are no more difficult than anything in SF. If you want crazy unreasonable motions, look to SNK first. The 3-to-4-hours-a-day is a massive exaggeration and it’s not necessary at all. The execution barrier in GG really is not all that bad, if anything it’s the volume of options the game offers that can be overwhelming.
And IIRC, the dislike of Alpha 3 has little to do with how complex it is. You make it sound like Alpha 2 was simple in comparison (not really).
Thanks
So i guess my question is that will Arc ever make more GG games? I’d guess so. They certainly left enough plot threads unfinished in AC+ and GG2: The Merciless Apocalypse, The Gear Dominion within Illyria, the whole mess concerning Ky’s family life, the future plans of the Bureau, the relationship of Fred & Aria, etc etc . . .
the only really hard motion Dizzy had was her Coffin grab, which was a rather obtuse :df::hcf::l::r: +P. In AC it got simplified to just a :hcb::r:+P, so in AC it saw a bit more use in matches, but just as a surprise since Diz still had better ways to use her meter honestly.
Decent invincibility on start-up as i recall though.
Or if you’re talking about Gamma Ray, well no one uses that.
I always thought Guilty Gear was pretty beginner-friendly. It’s the game I learned 2D fighters on. I could easily do interesting enough combos with something simple like kick>slash>hard slash>special with most characters, so from the very beginning I felt like I was actually playing and building on from there. On the other hand, most capcom and snk games always gave me the exact opposite feeling, where it was like all I could do was toss a couple fireballs and poke at people a bit, which never really motivated me to keep playing.
I still haven’t figured out why games like FPSes can keep people’s attention so much easier. I used to play Halo 1 all the time with a group of friends and other people from high school. We would mercilessly stomp all over the weaker players all the time, and yet they would still keep playing, whereas if we put in a fighting game (Soul Calibur 2, which we all barely played anyway) they would quickly lose interest, even though it didn’t really matter what game we played, they were still getting crushed every game. Actually, now that I think about it, they probably had more success mashing in SC2 than they did struggling in Halo, a game we took way more seriously at the time.
The one thing with shooters is usually you get doubleteamed, so you can rationalize losing a lot easier in a shooter then in a fighter. Winning feels like winning.
In a fighting game, if you lose, you did something wrong, or the game sucks. Sometimes, the game truly does suck, but most likely it’s due to something you did. Most people find it easier to believe the game did something wrong instead of them.
Good article. I found out from vgcharts how “well” the GG series actually did over here, and it only reaffirms what Ultima stated. Dat NARUTO and dat MADDEN are too strong.