Tiny change, but maybe make the last hit of Crimson Terror CA cancelable? To make empty jump low c.LK, AA LK CT, and CT combos that much more powerful.
@General_Awesomo We were able to do that in SF4, so the one thing I would ask, are other characters in SF5 able to super cancel like that? I think Ryu can off a fireball, right?
@General_Awesomo @af0 @Vhozon @RagingStormX @Cyberfish @“Evil Canadian” @“vagabond zero” @serpentaurus @Veserius @Messats @“Spinning Beat”
Calling the regulars to look over things. I want to fire this off, at least get the idea out there to Capcom since they probably already have his buffs/nerfs planned.
I think they are going to nerf Vega, so doesn’t really matter. If I play S2 I’m dropping him for an actually good character.
Yeah I like this list(s), but unfortunately it’s just too much. Honestly I’d be surprised if we got even 25% of these changes over SFV’s entire lifespan. If I had to pick my main fixes it would be functional hitboxes for his jumping buttons.
Also, I haven’t seen this mentioned in this thread, but I really don’t think Vega should be able to lose his Claw anymore. It’s pretty much in the game purely for tradition at this point, and nothing about Claw stance is strong enough to justify losing it even being a thing.
Probably. For some reason, they’ve always done weird nerfs like making CH unsafe in SF4. It wouldn’t surprise me if they did in 5.
@Vhozon Yeah, that’s why I separated it into 3 parts. The important bits matter most. I put your suggestion under things that will probably never change because I can’t imagine they’d actually remove the claw getting knocked off gimmick, just like I can’t imagine they’d actually make FBA useful outside of a combo or hard knock down throw setup.
Most hurtbox changes you put are too much for this game. If you notice the overall style they put into the hurtboxes, most are bigger than the hitbox.
My theory is they did this to prevent dominant pokes as much as possible, even good buttons usually have a lasting hurtbox like Karin c.hk/Gief s.fp. The probelm with them doing that is if you give someone a good hitbox where there is hitbox outside of the hurtbox (like the j.fp change you made) it becomes a super good dominant poke because of how poor most other normals are.
They’re mostly for illustration purposes at this point, but I could always adjust hurt boxes around the extended hit boxes to lower the priority. FWIW, all of Ryu’s punch buttons have more priority on them than what I did here. His kicks don’t, but it’s just an example.
Of course, he doesn’t have the range. Rashid has some ranged pokes, so I took a look at them, too. Quite a few of them have pretty good priority on them.
Most of Fang’s crouching punches and kicks have about the same if not more priority than what I put, and he has about the same amount of poke range as we do.
I don’t even want to talk about Necalli’s ranged and AA attacks, lol. I tried to be fair, in the sense that claw stance is about pokes and pokes and pokes and pokes. I could make them more like clawless j.HP and j.HK before I send them in if you feel that would have them take it more seriously.
I agree with the hitbox changes being more vague. I think if they get the following message, it will be better: “Claw stance should provide Vega with a more superior footsie game in comparison to clawless - right now it doesn’t at all.”
If we get into specifics, we might not get any changes at all.
I mean, if a move is non-cancellable…it must be really good right? Look at Nash’s cr.Mk and Urien’s cr.Mk (he can v-trigger his). These moves are obviously very strong but Vega’s cr.MP is nowhere near that level…and yet it too is non-cancellable…because???
@af0 I’m only using these as an example of what better pokes are. If we tell them in a vague way, they might fix something else, like buff clawless even more to make up for claw stance sucking, instead of actually fixing claw stance.
If we show them specifically things we’d like to see, and they have a visual, they can work off that and decide how to adjust those requests accordingly.
If they showed that much interest then yes visual representations are useful.
I doubt Capcom will make hitbox changes though…their approach seems to be frame-based more than anything.
What would have helped us more is if the known Vega players strictly played clawless in tournaments - instead of sticking to claw mode. Nemo did early on…and Flash I think finally started to around the end. That would have sent Capcom a clear message…even though many of us “unknowns” prefer clawless alone but I dunno if Capcom is aware.
Ok, so I’m going to send this off soon. To who or where should I send it?
Do you guys realize that the final build will come the 20th and that it was finalized long ago, right?
Hmmm yeah - but it’s just a matter of changing figures. Maybe the patch was already delivered to PSN for it to be ready for the 20th. Either way it’s not a dead cause cos the game gets frequent updates (monthly).
Won’t be surprised if there’s issues after the patch…so there’ll be another updated.
Apparently things are still changing over the builds, so nothing is finalized yet.
I’d love it if the patch on the 20th were the first part of a beta test of sorts before the actual season 2. Maybe thed’ll collect data for 1-2 months and then “launch” the official season 2 patch. In that case, the suggestions in this thread could be useful (although there are too many and too ambitious, in my opinion, but that’s another matter). However, I fear that what we get on the 20th will be the final build for all 2017, barring glitches and VERY, VERY, VERY broken stuff.
They’re going to have to patch in the near future balance changes because no one knows how damaging to the game the new changes are. There hasn’t been a lot of play testing for it, period.
@“Time Mage”
Well, lets talk about that. Pick from the list stuff we should focus on. The important stuff in the important section will be what I submit, I’ll probably exclude the nice but not necessary because most everything there functions pretty well. I’ll probably throw in the never gonna happen just for shits and giggles with a little note that’s all they really are since there are only 3 of them.
I’ll elaborate later if I can, but a few examples of the “too ambitious” claim are:
- claw st.MP: You can’t make a poke with such range and priority that is ALSO 6 frames of startup. It’s ridiculous. The closest equivalent, Karin’s st.MK, is 7 frames of startup, which is also 0 on block as you proposed, but has shorter range, and the hurbox completely surrounds the hitbox. What makes it better than our current st.MP is 7 frames of startup vs 8 frames, and 3 active frames vs 2. Not the hitbox.
- claw cr.MP: Basically the same: you can’t pretend to have such a long range with an extended hitbox over the hurtbox, and also be 5 frames of startup. I’m all for improving the range, frame data, and/or hitboxes of the claw pokes, Vega needs that, but not to such overpowered extents.
- Most of the hitbox/hurtbox changes in the jumping attacks are not in line with what the rest of the cast has. There are few exceptions of jumping attacks with a hitbox extending down past the hurtbox (a prime example being the infamous Ryu j.LK), but not only the extension on those is small, but the priority granted by such a small extension is usually pretty overpowered, as you know by the Ryu’s j.LK example. There is literally ONE heavy attack with a hitbox extending downwards from the hurbox, which is Mika’s j.HK. The rest of the heavy attacks, even the ones everyone consider to be very good, have a nice, fat hurbox surrounding the hitbox. The case with the jumping medium attack is pretty much the same: the ones we consider good are because of having a low hitbox that can crossup, not because such hitbox is lower than the hurtbox. On the contrary, the hutbox on such attacks (Laura’s, Karin’s or Nash’s j.MK, for example) is also clearly surrounded by the hurtbox.
My disagreements are mostly in the proposed hitbox/hurtbox adjustments, I honestly think you haven’t studied the game hit/hurtboxes properly, and how they actually interact ingame. There are other things that I disagree, and many others that I really like, but I’ll have to leave that for future posts, as I’m already late, sorry.
If they are not going to do dramatic changes to hitbox/hurtboxes atleast i would asf for 7 frame start up on claw on st mp…i do think it would made a huge diference…there would be a bunch of stuff it would be able to punish that it can not right now…also better frame traps with it…the move will be balanced by its lengthy recovery and its bad hitbox…if even that is too much how about reduce the insane pushback it has on hit?..you coul do cr lp ex fba or ex ase after hit or atleast you would be able to consistently link into cr mp or into st hp on counterhit
@“Time Mage” Ok, that’s fair and we can adjust. I looked at a lot of hit and hurt boxes and while it is true having priority isn’t always typical, there are stand outs that do have good priority even on ranged attacks. If s.MP had the hit box change it would still need to contend with crush counter attacks that start up in 7 frames and heavy vs medium priority. So lets say we extend the hurt box to it’s vanilla state but keep the proposed hit one, that lowers the priority a lot and we’ll still get beat out by plenty of attacks that actually do have priority and faster start up. What would you do with the frame data then? Keep it at 8, which in that case it will never beat the start up of something like Ryu’s c.HK, which will always hit below it and a frame earlier, plus CC? Or lower it to 6? At 7, it will still get beat by CC and priority if it trades with a heavier attack, so the change wouldn’t be that drastic. The extra frame would allow better whiff punishes, but it still has a lot of recovery and can be whiff punished as well.
We also get nothing off the attack unless with have full v.trigger. It can’t cancel and still gets beat by ranged low attacks though it would be harder for them to get in range to do so.
c.MP is another attack we get absolutely nothing off. Nothing, so it might as well be good. In 4 it started up in 4 frames, had more range, and we actually got damage off it if we had meter.
claw j.HP would be his only attack with great downwards priority, which he has nothing to challenge anti-airs. Even this version of claw j.HP wouldn’t be able to beat R.Mika’s unique AA or her headbutt, neither Ryu’s c.HP or Balrog’s s.MP and a few other examples out there. It would be hard to even trade against those. Vega has no button to dream of attempting a trade against anti-airs and there is no way in hell he could ever hope to attempt a trade against those. Sure, you shouldn’t always jump, but sometimes getting a trade is a risk you need to take to wrap up a round. Sometimes a jump beating someone pressing the wrong button is rewarded with damage, I mean how often do we eat a full jump in combo because someone jumped over one of our slow pokes or simply destroyed any AA option we have at close range?
I can easily remap hit/hurt boxes, so lets get something done in the next day or two. I want to send this out no later than Saturday.