Season 2 Vega wishlist

Edit: Updated with new formatting and feedback

Season 2 is just around the corner and nothing is written in stone yet. Let’s come up with a reasonable list of changes and tweaks we can send to combofiend or whoever is willing to listen. I’ll update this post accordingly.

After hours of analyzing, these are the hit and hurt box changes I came up with. Thanks to @Overheat76 for his video, I was able to capture data from it.

  • bright green lined box is an altered hurt box
  • bright blue lined box is a hurt box that should be removed
  • transparent red box is an altered hit box
  • transparent blue box is a hit box that should be removed
  • bright red transparent box is a new hit box overlapping an old one

----- Important changes in descending order -----
[list]
[*] claw s.MP:

Spoiler

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/34563876/Images/vega%20tweaks/02sMP.jpeg

[list][] extended hit box to where the middle of the claw slashes
[
] reduced hurt box to add decent priority
[] removed stray hurt box above head
[
] change from 8 to 6 start up frames to counter long ranged 7 frame heavy crush counter attacks
[] active frames increased from 2 to 3
[
] block changed from 1 to 0 to compensate extra range and active frames, since used at range 0 on block should be more than safe enough with the adjusted hit boxes
[/list]

[] s.HK: alter move to have two phases
[list]
[
] phase 1:

Spoiler

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/34563876/Images/vega%20tweaks/07sHK.jpeg

[list][]created a hit box during the knee animation for a hit
[
] special/super cancel
[] 2 active frames
[
] required to avoid whiffing Matador Blitz on crouching opponents during a hit
[/list]
[*] s.HK phase 2:

Spoiler

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/34563876/Images/vega%20tweaks/08sHK.jpeg

[list][] extended hit box to tip of the foot
[
] increased hurt box horizontally to compensate range
[] no special/super cancel
[
] same stats as vanilla on hit/block
[/list]
[/list]

[*] claw j.HP:

Spoiler

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/34563876/Images/vega%20tweaks/17jHP.jpeg

[list]
[*] extended hit box vertically to the tip of the claw for proper priority and to match the visuals
[/list]

[*] claw c.MP

Spoiler

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/34563876/Images/vega%20tweaks/09cMP.jpeg

[list][] extended hit box to the tip of the claw
[
] reduced hurt box to add good priority
[*] change start up frames from 6 to 5 so it’s faster than claw s.MP and has its own uses and trade offs such as speed (claw c.MP) vs range (claw s.MP)
[/list]

[*] clawless j.HP:

Spoiler

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/34563876/Images/vega%20tweaks/21jHP.jpeg

[list][] mapped hit box to the hand to properly match the visuals
[
] extended hurt box vertically to compensate
[/list]

[*] c.MK:

Spoiler

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/34563876/Images/vega%20tweaks/11cMK.jpeg

[list][] extended hit box to the heel of the foot
[
] reduced hurt box for some priority
[] change active frames from 2 to 3
[
] less push back for better meaty setups
[/list]

[] claw s.HP: alter move to have two phases
[list]
[
] phase 1:

Spoiler

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/34563876/Images/vega%20tweaks/03sHP.jpeg

[list][] a low to mid hitting hit box added
[
] special/super cancel
[] same stats as vanilla on hit/block during cancel
[
] less horizontal priority compared to vanilla to compensate for new anti-air during phase 2 and more active frames (phase 1 + phase 2)
[/list]
[*] phase 2:

Spoiler

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/34563876/Images/vega%20tweaks/04sHP.jpeg

[list]
[] a mid to high hitting box added
[
] good vertical priority for anti-air
[] bad horizontal ground priority
[
] no special/super cancel
[] same stats as vanilla on hit/block
[
] removed stray lower hurt box
[/list]

Spoiler

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/34563876/Images/vega%20tweaks/05sHP.jpeg

[list]
[] if unreasonable, at the very least fix the stray hurt box above his sash
[
] why this has no hit boxes during the animation, you can see here it actually has two enormous hurt boxes in front of Vega before anything ever hits the screen…
[/list]
[/list]

[*] j.HK:

Spoiler

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/34563876/Images/vega%20tweaks/20jHK.jpeg

[list][] extended hit box to the tip of the foot
[
] extended hurt box to compensate
[/list]

[*] claw c.HP:

Spoiler

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/34563876/Images/vega%20tweaks/10cHP.jpeg

[list][] reduced hurt box to add a fair amount of priority since it doesn’t have a lot and can’t be canceled
[
] increase active frames from 2 to 4
[*] add crush counter to make the attack worth using at -5 on block, we have no reason to use it in its current state since it isn’t an anti-air, crush counter, or able to be canceled
[/list]

[*] Mercury Shard:

Spoiler

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/34563876/Images/vega%20tweaks/23fMK.jpeg

[list][] fixed hurt box so the move matches the visuals
[
] make the move airborne during the middle of the attack
[*] change input to down forward + MK
[/list]

[*] Buster Claw:

Spoiler

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/34563876/Images/vega%20tweaks/22fHP.jpeg

[list][] removed stray hurt box above head
[
] extended hit box to the tip of the claw
[] reduced hurt box to add some priority to an otherwise risky move
[
] change input to down forward + HP
[/list]

Normal attack changes:
[list]
[] s.LK: less pushback on hit so combos are more reliable when used as a combo starter
[
] c.LK: add special cancel, allows for high low mix up into special cancel combo and less pushback on hit so combos are more reliable when used as a combo starter
[/list]

Special attack changes:
[list]
[] light Crimson Terror: change from -6 to -2 on block, safe enough to not eat a full punish but Vega’s turn is over
[
] medium Crimson Terror: change from -7 to -4 on block, same reasons as l.CT
[*] ex Crimson Terror: change from -2 on block to 0 on block, it costs meter and you should at least be at neutral on block
[/list]

V-Reversal changes:
[list]
[*] Back Slash (3x Punch v-reversal): change so Vega flips behind the opponent to help ease corner pressure a little bit
[/list]

V-Trigger changes:
[list]
[*] After v-trigger allow something else to juggle other than Bloody Rain, such as ex.FBA from anywhere in the screen or cr.HK, m.ASE, h.ASE, and ex.ASE in the corner.
[/list]

Random Changes:
[list]
[] Increase the speed of the wall jump similar to how it was in SF4
[
] Allow stance change before the start of a round
[*] PLEASE remove the SRK input short cut!
[/list]
[/list]

----- Changes that would be nice but not necessary, in no particular order -----
[list]
[*] claw s.LP:

Spoiler

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/34563876/Images/vega%20tweaks/01sLP.jpeg

[list][] extended hit box to the tip of the claw
[
] extended hurt box to compensate extra range
[*] priority remains the same
[/list]

[*] s.MK:

Spoiler

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/34563876/Images/vega%20tweaks/06sMK.jpeg

[list][] extended hit box to the tip of his foot
[
] reduced hurt box slightly to add a little priority
[] change active frames from 2 to 3
[
] change block from 2 to 1 to compensate the extra range and active frames
[*] more pushback on block to be used at range since c.MK (see under important changes) having an extra active frame makes it the better choice for close meaty
[/list]

[*] clawless s.MP:

Spoiler

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/34563876/Images/vega%20tweaks/13sMP.jpeg

[list][]extended hit box to finger tips
[
] extended hurt box to compensate extra range
[] priority remains the same
[
] removed unnecessary hurt box along leg
[/list]

[*] clawless s.HP:

Spoiler

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/34563876/Images/vega%20tweaks/14sHP.jpeg

[list][] shortened height of hurt box above head
[
] removed unnecessary and stray hurt box in front of his body
[/list]

[*] clawless c.LP:

Spoiler

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/34563876/Images/vega%20tweaks/15cLP.jpeg

[list][] extended hit box to finger tips
[
] extended hurt box to compensate extra range
[*] priority remains the same
[/list]

[*] clawless c.MP:

Spoiler

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/34563876/Images/vega%20tweaks/16cMP.jpeg

[list][] extended hit box to finger tips
[
] extended hurt box to compensate extra range
[*] priority slightly less than vanilla
[/list]

[*] c.HK:

Spoiler

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/34563876/Images/vega%20tweaks/12cHK.jpeg

[list][*] extended hit box to the heel of the foot
[/list]

[*] j.LK:

Spoiler

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/34563876/Images/vega%20tweaks/18jLK.jpeg

[list][] remove vanilla hit box above the calf
[
] adjusted a new hit box to match visuals
[*] shifted hurt box to compensate
[/list]

[*] j.MK:

Spoiler

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/34563876/Images/vega%20tweaks/19jMK.jpeg

[list][*] extended hit box to the tip of the foot for a little extra range
[/list]

Special attack changes:
[list]
[*] medium Aurora Spin Edge: allow c.LP to cancel into it
[/list]

V-skill changes:
[list]
[] Matador Turn: for the passive version, have full invincibility similar to how Vega’s back flips used to work
[
] If the hit boxes for heavy jump attacks are fixed that would allow us to jump a fireball and beat a good deal of anti-air attempts after a thrown fireball, so we would already have a tool to deal with slow fireballs and can keep the vanilla Matador Turn for medium and fast ones
[/list]
[/list]

----- Changes that will probably never happen, in no particular order -----
[list]
[*] Flying Barcelona Attack:

Spoiler

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/34563876/Images/vega%20tweaks/24FBA.jpeg

[list][] made the hit box represent the visuals properly so Vega is not belly flopping
[
] extended hurt box to compensate
[] not so bad priority as vanilla
[/list]
[
] ex Flying Barcelona Attack
[list]
[*] Phase 1:

Spoiler

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/34563876/Images/vega%20tweaks/25FBA.jpeg

[list][] extended the hit box to represent the visuals so the knee hits
[
] adjusted hurt box to compensate
[] minor priority in air to air
[
] hit box was increased dramatically, and though it seems like a lot players have to spend precious meter on it and outside of combos nearly everything beats it clean
[/list]
[*] Phase 2:

Spoiler

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/34563876/Images/vega%20tweaks/26FBA.jpeg

[list][] adjusted hit box to better represent where the slash comes out
[
] not nearly as bad priority as vanilla
[/list]
[/list]
[*] Bloody Rain:

Spoiler

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/34563876/Images/vega%20tweaks/27BR.jpeg

[list][]shifted the hit box forward similar to ex.FBA
[
] extended hit box so the knee to the mask hits on the way up
[] should be better in air to air
[
] hit box increased dramatically allowing it to work better as an air to air attack and not get beat out by a simple light air normal attack
[*] Bloody Rain costs a full meter so this should be more than fair considering nearly every character in the game has a fully invincible super and Bloody Rain doesn’t have any physical invulnerability
[/list]

Random Changes:
[list]
[*] No more losing claw during matches, claw stance is weak enough as it is
[/list]
[/list]

----- End -----

Please share your thoughts and I’ll update this thread. If anyone wants to talk hit and hurt boxes, lets do so! We should get this done in a week and have something solid to send to Capcom. Yeah, just about everything here is a long shot, but most of it is pretty reasonable. Any counter points are welcome! Please quote from this thread, lets discuss it, and then compile it for a final version.

Claw stance should really be about buttons, zoning, and anti-airing which is why I also added the claw s.HP anti-air phase. This stance should be good priority but no real combo potential. On the hit boxes I did, I increased some of the ranges of clawless a tad, but over all, I think they’re pretty solid as is and should be more about combo potential unlike claw stance. They’re pretty good as they are, so they’re in a nice-but-not-necessary category. There really needs to be a reason to use one over the other

Thank you!

Asking for less is sometimes asking for more. But I understand this is a wish list so anything/everything goes.

Personally, I would like for cr.MP (claw) to be cancellable.

I would like a V-reversal that gets Vega away from the corner.

And for st.Jabs to hit crouchers.

Faster jump speed and better arc

Very good suggestions.

What I want the most is buffs to the claw stance, even at the price of nerfs for bare hands.
Fighting with claws is what makes Vega unique, but it is not worth it in SFV.
The tinny bit of range you get from it is ridiculous, and you can’t cancel.

As you stated Moonchild, claw stance should be about range and pokes, they need to buffs its normals, especially st MP, and cr MP, and Buster Claw.
And why the hell is cr HP weaker with the claw ? He’s got a freaking claw, it should be stronger, not weaker.

I think if they get rid of AA jabs then Vega’s jump would be good as it is now. Would be nice if his jumping light kick was not surrounded by fat hurtboxes though.

I mostly agree, but then you’d still have to contend against attacks like Ryu’s c.HP which is why we really need a proper claw j.HP. All his downward striking jump attacks are surrounded by fat hurt boxes and it’s simply ridiculous, they’re completely useless as is. Take out AA lights and you’d still have to contend with proper AA buttons and we’d still lose every single time, clean without trades.

@RagingStormX’s suggestion would be good for fireball match ups since a good reaction would give a great punish, but still not help against the likes of Birdie’s amazing headbutt AA or Guile’s anti-air buttons.

Out of all the hit box changes I listed, the ones I’d want most in order of importance would be:

  1. claw s.MP
  2. s.HK
  3. claw j.HP
  4. claw c.MP
  5. clawless j.HP
  6. c.MK
  7. claw s.HP
  8. j.HK

I think those are the top priority as far as changes. Do you folks agree? The rest I’m mostly ok with such as claw s.LP, it’s not bad but just would like the visuals to match up more. Having the rest would really be icing on the cake but they’re pretty functional at the moment. If I got the first 4 out of that list I’d be pretty happy.

I know for sure FBA would never happen but I did it as a way to illustrate how awful that move is on its own. Even the one I did would be possible to AA with a good AA button like Ryu’s c.HP and could still be beat clean, but a late button would trade.

Any thoughts on rolls on block? -2 too safe for lights? Would it be more reasonable to request -3, -4, and -6?

I think most of us agree on the inputs for command normals. Those definitely need to change.

What about frame data?

I feel a blocked lk roll shouldnt be punishable by DP, but thats just me.

Juggling Vtrigger would for sure bring Vega’s game up a tad. If he has no viable reversals, his offense should be beastly to compensate.

Then it would have to be -2 right?

Been on this for a long time, but biggest “buff” I want is simply being able to switch stances during the pre-fight animation. When you are playing someone who “knows” I hate the vega only mindgame of them trying to catch your initial stance switch at the start of the round.

Other than that, it’d be nice for claw normals to be less shit.

Yeah, stance change before the start of a round would be a nice change. I’ll put that in the notes. Agreed about claw stance, obviously.

Faster jump isn’t necessarily to punish fireballs, since that shit is hard in this game. What is would be for is to jump over them to gain ground and not get punished. If jumped over many projectiles, even neutral jumped, just to get hit by a dashing Nash dp or ryu s.rh. Also Vega has always had a great jump til now. Not to live in the past since this game is what it is, but I miss super jumping fullscreen and punishing fireballs in cvs2 lol.

Also if you watch the new core a gaming video on YouTube, it’s pretty much impossible to react to fireballs with a jump in this game with certain characters. Ryu for example would have to react in 4 frames to get a punish since it takes 37 frames for a jumping hk to connect at minimum height required to tag another ryus hurtbox.

I think that’s the idea though. If fireballs are reactable with jumps, no ones gonna be able to use them.

Vega’s anti-fireball game is pretty bad against Chun-li and Guile. Even with a good jump, they can still recover or anti-air Vega. That’s cos none of Vega’s jumping normals hit deep. Once in the air, you still have to wait a while before you can make contact on a standing opponent.

So it’s true that with claw on, Vega’s jumping normals should be MUCH better. They’re literally crap right now.

Also, to OP, can you please “hide” images in the main post cos it’s pretty annoying trying to scroll down lol

I’m far from being as good as you all are, so my opinion matters a lot less.
Nervertheless, here is my list:

  1. Claw St mp
  2. Claw cr mp
  3. Buster Claw
  4. cr mk
  5. Claw jump HP

Maybe they don’t want him to be good at jumping, but he should at least be better on the ground with his pokes, where he is supposed to shine !
Rushdown is more rewarding in SFV, but I think giving Vega more footsie will bring more diversity to the game.
It is boring to see that even Vega has to play rushdown to be viable.

Why make claw stance so bad ? Claw’s nickname deserves to be changed to bare hands now, which does not make any sense since this is the case for the all remaining cast…
He is the only character with that particularity, capcom should not make it shit.

Do you really thing anyone at Capcom will read this and think of buffing claw stance before season 2 dropps ?

Nope, but it wouldn’t hurt to give visual examples of what we’d like.

Updated original post.

@af0 Not sure why, but quotes (<-- dumb ass, fixed now) aren’t hiding the images. They’ve been there since the beginning :frowning:

I’d like Vega’s unique attacks to be changed to DF+MK/HP. Fuck accidental F+MK/HP when I’m trying to walk forward and s.MK/claw s.HP.

More juggle ability for V-Trigger. I’m tired of having to go all (CA) or nothing with Vega’s V-Trigger.

If HP ASE is to really remain our only ground anti-air, cut down on the startup a bit.

Allow Switching Claw before the start of rounds.

Full invincibility for V-Skill.

Improving range and speed of certain normals, especially claw s.MP.

Make s.HK hit crouchers. Especially if it remains as our only crush counter apart from Buster Claw. There are certain DPs that duck s.HK in their recovery simply because they don’t have some of those stray head hurtboxes I see they like to give Vega arbitrarily.

Usually when someone has a F+button I pretend the neutral one is B+button to avoid accidental inputs.

But I’m sure at times you can lose out on a tiny bit of range.

@RagingStormX F+HP is CH in CvS2 and I don’t accidentally get it. I think it’s simply the input window is enormous in SFV in comparison. DF+ would fix that if they didn’t want to shorten the window, or better yet, they can do both.

@General_Awesomo

All that stuff is already in the important section.

Yeah, I saw. I’m just mentioning what’s most important for me.