Other than looking at tournament statistics, you can also ask players who are a real authority about matchups like the ogawa/shounen article in arcadia magazine a few years ago.
i dont know man, there are some top players that spmetimes i dont know what are they thinking, are they for real or are trolling
like in an old arcadia matchup table for HNK one of the rei players give Rei vs Mr Heart something like 2:8 in favor of heart what is totally laughable
I think thatās what KI said. Of course itās good to know WHY he said that. The mentioned GGAC article had a huge matchup analysis by said players.
Also scrubquotes from the comments of descrubtoid
fucking goldmine
yeah it has a huge matchup analisys, but in the end their are opinions based on experience of said players, i dont remeber who was who put ino, anji, jhonny and bridgette on the garbage tier, basically beause he doesnt like them, yeah bridgette, jhonny and anji struggle a little on GGAC specially Bridgette, but they arent bad to be considered garbage
First of all, I want to thank many many posters in this thread for providing some very entertaining diversions for the daily chunks of downtime at my job. Reading the insanity spewed by satou over on Unity, for example, really helps to pass the time. Though, his forum screenname is too close to mine for my liking, ewā¦
That article sort of had kernels that could have ultimately become good points individually, but the overall tone, I have problems with. I think the biggest one is that heās banging his head against an invisible wall. This is what stuck out to me the most:
Who DOES this? How many good players, how many tournament winners, how many expert theory fighters, let tier lists tell them what to think? I am none of those things myself, but Iād wager the answer is well under 50%. Basically, the article seems to be coming from the position that the DOMINANT thinking among tournament goers is that tier lists are all-important, that they are infallible gospel, and that EVERYONE should be playing high-tier in any fighting game if they want to be serious about winning in said game. When, in actuality, that seems like a fringe viewpoint, not a core one. Itād be like writing an article about Star Trek fans and asserting that said fans doing crazy shit like showing up for jury duty in a Starfleet uniform is a big problem in our society⦠completely ignoring the fact that Trek fans who actually DO shit like that comprise maybe 1% of the fandom.
If he is trying to say āPlay who you like, be the best you can be at whatever character you like to play; if the game has decent balance, youāre good.ā then I agree! Itās a sound concept! The thing is⦠who is he arguing AGAINST? Who ISNāT saying that?
iāve never known of a tier list that explicitly used tourney results to get its data.
Iām disappointed at Little_Goten for not sharing this goldmine:
I keep seeing that term thrown around and Iām not sure what it means. Does it mean someone who uses cheap moves all the time? A spammer? What?
What annoys you the most in Mortal Kombat 9?
People who only play as characters to try to be an A-hole to win instead of learning the character. Such as:
Kung Lao: Anything.
Raiden: Teleport and Superman.
Sheeva: Tele-stomp and uppercut.
Stryker: Gun.
Noob: Shadows.
etc.The MK community has no honor whatsoever, which is why MK will never be a hugely successful game in the tournament scene. People donāt want to get good at the game, they just want to learn the best ways to exploit the unbalancedness of the game in their favor to try and win.
Whatās the difference between zoning and spamming?
I was fighting as Liu Kang and the other guy was noob saibot. he went on the far side of the screen, left a huge distance between us. Then he send running noob toward me if i jump, and sliding noob if i dash and block to move toward him. I couldnt really do dash low block because you are standing up when you dash and dont have time to crouch block because sliding noob is too fast. That was so freaking annoying because i couldnt teleport with Liu and block damages made lose both rounds! Kinda made wish that Liu counter was working for projectile to punish that dudeā¦
Why are people so annoying! Thatās not spamming according to you itās zoning. Both are too freaking annoying and people doing that should be banned for 3 monthsā¦
there is a short period of time where itās ok to spam to get the opponent to back off(some characters are meant to play like this) but when someone is constanly using the same range attack throughout the game, that is where it becomes unacceptable
winning is still winning, theres no question about that, but its how you do it that shows if you are an experienced player or not.you can either go about being a scrub douche and zone the whole game(spam), or actually prove that you have skill. You would think that more people could see the difference but aparently not, I hope this does not encourage more people to believe spam is acceptable.
to all you real spammers, go die in a fire, You know who you are.
zoning=a name that spammers came up with so noone would make fun of them!!! xD
^First link doesnāt seem to link to the correct thread.
^
i will laugh my fucking ass off at ANYBODY that thinks SHEEVA is cheap!
On that Dtoid article again, I completely forgot to mention in my other post the heavily, heavily flawed (on a NUMBER of levels) baseball analogy. The reasons why itās heavily flawed are covered quite nicely in a long reply by Christopher Price on the second page of comments (with 50 comments per page displayed⦠the comments cannot be individually linked to, nor are they labeled or numbered in any way, which⦠is really stupid actually.) Here it is for those that are curious but donāt want to sift through all the rest:
Christopher Priceās reply
[details=Spoiler] Wow, this article is bad. Exceptionally bad, even. The author should be ashamed of himself for submitting it. As a fan and semi-competitive player of fighting games, but more so as a person who writes for a living, Iām outright offended at this tripe masquerading as an article.
Okay, maybe in the original article you didnāt mean ābalanceā in the same way balance is pretty much always used in relation to fighting games. Hereās the thing: thatās not the fighting game community, or my, or tier listsā faults. Thatās your fault. If youāre going to use terminology outside of its accepted usage, you should clarify your meaning. You certainly shouldnāt get pissed off and write some 4000 word diatribe in response to the confusion you caused. Thatās just common sense.
Of course itās also common sense to not just make things up when youāre writing an article, but that clearly hasnāt stopped you from doing that. For example, you keep suggesting thereās some significant difference between the US and Japanese tiers for 3s when that is in no way the case. The suggestion that a twelve year old game that has has thousands of tournaments and MILLIONS of matches doesnāt have enough data to make meaningful judgments about character strength is laughable at best. Honestly, I could break down everything you said that is either contradictory, unclear, or downright wrong, but it would probably end up longer than your article.
The most inexcusable part, however, was that three paragraph heap of bullshit about knuckleballs. You spend 400+ words talking about the history and ramifications of something that NEVER HAPPENED. Look, itās okay to not know or care about baseball. Lots of people donāt. The difference between those people and you is that those people donāt make up stories about the history of baseball to try to prove a point. If they are smart, theyād probably try to make a comparison with something they actually know something about, or at the very least do some basic fact checking. Since you clearly have no pride whatsoever in your work, you couldnāt even be bothered to do that. In any case, Iām anxiously awaiting when this imaginary Knuckleball Era of Baseball finally gives way to the next made-up fad.
To address the primary point: if youāre spending hours writing awful articles about tiers and citing single match exception videos (often which contradict your own point) to try to discredit tiers, you are probably the one who cares too much about tiers. Lots of people are aware of the tiers and play the characters they like anyway. Many people play and enjoy 3s in spite of it being pretty poorly balanced because they like the way it plays. If people trying to evaluate character strength, bothers you that much, you should probably take a long look in the mirror. And for Godās sake, youāre on the Internet. Get off your lazy ass and look something up before you put it in an article. I do it every day. Itās not hard.[/details]
This is actually one of several well-reasoned comments refuting parts or all of the original article.
**
there is a short period of time where itās ok to spam to get the opponent to back off(some characters are meant to play like this) but when someone is constanly using the same range attack throughout the game, that is where it becomes unacceptable
**
winning is still winning, theres no question about that, but its how you do it that shows if you are an experienced player or not.you can either go about being a scrub douche and zone the whole game(spam), or actually prove that you have skill. You would think that more people could see the difference but aparently not, I hope this does not encourage more people to believe spam is acceptable.
to all you real spammers, go die in a fire, You know who you are.
:wtf: My goodness.
Hereās a baseball analogy that *works: *All this yammering about how fireball spam is cheap (or whatever: throws are cheap, combos are cheap, etc⦠this works for damn near ANY āX is cheapā cry)⦠yelling that something INTENDED to be in the game is āunacceptableā (lol) is kinda like a baseball player yelling at an infielder over a pop foul out, isnāt it? āMan, I didnāt even have a CHANCE to make it to first cause you didnāt even stay in fair territory to catch it! All you did was fucking camp under the ball over by the dugout and WAIT for it to fall into your glove! Cheap ass scrub, get some real skill!ā

Iām disappointed at Little_Goten for not sharing this goldmine:
Sorry. Been busy with school.

Sorry. Been busy with school.
Iām more concerned that your first reaction was to post there and not share here. I mean, itās ScrubFistIV, we all no no amount of sense can be drilled into that thick skull of his.

Iām disappointed at Little_Goten for not sharing this goldmine:
Do you log on to moderate that place and just slam your face into a table every 3 seconds?

Do you log on to moderate that place and just slam your face into a table every 3 seconds?
Why slam my face into the table, when I can show you stuff from there and get you guys to slam your faces with me?:razzy:

Why slam my face into the table, when I can show you stuff from there and get you guys to slam your faces with me?:razzy:
A Mexican wave of face slamming? TouchƩ!
A pure example of this is 3rd Strike. Its unbalanced. Using Chun/High Tier or Shotos in this game is being cheap simply bcuz they get too much reward for too little to no effort Vs using Low Tier and actually being able to win with āskillā without being douchebag tier scrubs bcuz apparently honor doesnt exist in this realm but skill is 100 times more important anyways. That is what is defined as cheap. The mentality of āOh I beat you and it doesnt matter how or what char. I used doesnt matterā ā¦
Emphasis is present in the original.
A pure example of this is 3rd Strike. Its unbalanced. Using Chun/High Tier or Shotos in this game is being cheap simply bcuz they get too much reward for too little to no effort Vs using Low Tier and actually being able to win with āskillā without being douchebag tier scrubs bcuz apparently honor doesnt exist in this realm but skill is 100 times more important anyways. That is what is defined as cheap. The mentality of āOh I beat you and it doesnt matter how or what char. I used doesnt matterā is sad, flawed and false. How can you even call yourself a good player or pro or elite if all you do is use easy to win with chars. that get away with too much BS w/ cheap tactics that take little to no s-kill to perform? lol
Ive been playing 3S for 5-6yrs and I play HARD MODE AKA Low Tier, well I main Alex whose 14th place but I just started recently started 2nding Urien bcuz I was getting bored with Alex/Q for 2 1/2yrs straight - Urien which is not easy to use for obvious reasons for anyone thats ever tried to use him will know. Not only does it take skill and advanced knowledge of footsies/mind games/parrying(air & red too) to win but I also get this thing called RESPECT for NOT being a Tier Scrub and taking the easy way out bcuz Im proving to the world that Im not a scrub whereas they already did with their choice of char. and style of play proving absolutely nothing.
I hate it when newjack randoms try to discuss tiers. Play who you want to play, BUT some characters are better simply because they have more tools or take advantage of the system. Unless a matchup is 10-0, anyone CAN win. Some just have an easier time in certain situations, and thats all the list tells you. The problem is when joe random tries to make a tier list, its some personal popularity contest bullshit because there is no way they have accumulated such knowledge and experience with every character to validate such list.