Samurai Shodown Anthology

Current Fighting Games Fighting Game Discussion
981

I like Samurai Shodown 2 because it provides a unique experience among fighting games, more or less. Instead of going in the rushdown/crazy combo direction like most later games, or just playing pretty much like Street Fighter II with a gimmick like most other games of the time, it went in the other direction and became about very conservative, careful play. Samurai Shodown 5, while being a better game, offers a somewhat less unique experience. The only other games I can think of that offer this type of experience are Samurai Shodown 1, which takes it too far – I seem to remember matches where nobody landed any damage at all before the time ran out – and Samurai Shodown III, which was just plain sloppy.

Every one of Shishio’s gripes about the gameplay is probably true. I think the hitboxes and damage vary frame-by-frame more than other games. I’m pretty sure damage is highly connected to your opponent’s state: if they’re neutral they take normal damage; if they’re doing a move or jumping, they take extra damage; if they’re running or doing a special move, they take grievious extra damage; and if they’re stunned they take much less damage. Maybe it’s all my imagination, but that seems consistent to me. The gameplay is so slow that large damage is completely necessary. If you’re getting hit by random hard slashes more than every once in a great while, you’re not playing with the proper state of mind. Same with floaty jumps: jumps are meant to be very high risk in this game.

I can agree with the useless moves and the balance problems, for sure. One doesn’t hurt the game at all, while the other really hurts it. I seem to recall someone on these boards saying that Samurai Shodown 2 is really pretty balanced if you got to very high level play, but it’s very unbalanced before then. It doesn’t seem to be a popular opinion, but I’ve always remembered it and wondered. The hidden moves aren’t that bad. Chip damage is a significant part of the game, that’s all. Many characters have a way to do a lot of chip damage in the corner. There’s nothing wrong with a few being able to do it better than others.

In short, I don’t think Samurai Shodown II is perfect or even the best game in the series (though I think it’s the second best), but I love it in spite of its flaws. I think it’s good qualtiies overcome those. It’s so different from Samurai Shodown V Special, that it doesn’t surprise me that fans of one aren’t necessarily fans of the other. As stated before, I’d love to see a revision that keeps everything intact for the most part but fixes the glaring flaws!

982

Well at least he explained why he likes it more than the other games. I can respect that. Not that I agree with most of it but I can respect it.

That assripping mostly went out to people who just say 2 is the best and don’t give any reasons why to back up their claim. It’s one of those games that everyone says is good but they’ve only heard their friends say it so it must be true. Kind of like MOTW, LB, 98, and (mostly hit or miss)2002.

983

Last Blade is the most boring good-looking game ever

984

So are you saying that if we compare SS3 and SS5sp, SS3 will come out conservative and careful, while SS5sp will be more rushdown/crazy combo game? To me its other way around. SS3 is combo heavy because you can combo off grab, and combos in the back can long and damaging AND grab setups them. SS5 has no much combos other than 2-hit, 3-hit ones, etc, the stuff similar to SS2. Yes you can score additional hit with ground pursuit but thats it. One can do full life combo easily in SS3, but try to do it in SS5sp.

What I will say about SS2 is: Lack of options; though was good for its time.

985

Oops, I mis-spoke. I don’t play 3 much. I was remembering the high damage level, I guess. I kind of threw 3 in as an afterthought, at any rate. SS5 Special does strike me as more of a standard fighter, though it’s still pretty unique.

Shishioh, if we can respectfully disagree, that puts us ahead of the curve.

986

sorry but last blade can’t hold ss2’s(or any other SS game for that matter) cock. It’s simply a boring game as stated above. And am I the only one that still has a soft spot for SS1?

987

Hanzo’s voice and arena, and also Wan-fu’s skills are better in SS1 than in SS2.

988

Here we go again…

989

I can’t help but think when I read posts like these:

“Do you even know what you’re talking about”? I’m pretty sure you don’t.

990

If there’s one thing I don’t like about SS IV other than Nakoruru being god-tier is how the grab system works. It feels really, really random, and there’s no way to tech or soften the grab. I don’t think it’s possible to tick-throw, because I’ve tried and immediately eat a CD combo. To have the grab also act as the AB slash doesn’t really work, because if you try to grab and it doesn’t connect for whatever reason, you immediately do that slash and you are wide open for punishment. I also don’t like the priority the CD combo has and how it can be done at will.

Bottom line: It’s a good game, it’s fun, but V Special trumps it in every way. I really want to see V Special on GGPO. I think if there’s a group effort, and we all donate, it could happen. Plus GGPO is a fantastic service (not trying to dick-ride) and it needs to be supported.

991

Good luck trying to tick throw using light attacks that leave at equal frames at very very best, in fact i think most leave you at a disadvantage.

5 special trumps 4 in terms of interesting combos and variety?
Didn’t think so

992

GGS to Sean’s Legacy for V Special on Supercade.

If by interesting combos you mean infinites, then yeah, IV has V Special beat.

993

People like you make me laugh you just see infinents and that’s it, yeah there’s no other combos in ss4 apart from infinents, the various possibiltys from the dialcombos, loops, back turnt only combos off of throws, the various links in the game, not to mention the juggles, of course none of those exsist in ss4 there’s only infinents.

Of course 5 special has lots of varied combos as many as for it has errr 2 in 1’s into ground pursuits yes varied and interesting, and dominates ss4 in that area yes?

994

I like Charlotte and Nakoruru’s music better in SS1, besides what Black Shroud said, for what that’s worth.

995

Since nobody else is answering… Yosh is a poking character, not a heavy hitter, so you need to basically just make them not want to approach you. Pretty much everything he does has great hitboxes/active frames. Here’s a rundown of his standard tech:

  • Block recoil cancel off of cr.B, s.B and dashing B is very important, use it for mixups.
  • Don’t forget that you can recoil cancel into the deflect.
  • s.AB is trash. Close s.AB can cancel and combo on hit into QCB AB, super, or fatality(!). Both have slow startup and should only be used to punish.
  • QCF B is effectively safe on block (-9f) anywhere beyond close range, though the startup is pretty slow. QCF A hits low, is comboable off of his B slashes, and starts faster but is very unsafe on block.
  • His DP has autoguard frames on startup only. The stronger the slash, the more autoguard he has.
  • RDP A’s autoguard frames are handy for approaching but try not to land at point blank range, you’ll be thrown if they see it.
  • DP C, his command autocombo(it’s not a command throw!), is actually not completely useless. It is 3f startup, so if someone is at close range and you block more or less anything, you can throw it out for a punish, sometimes even beating out recoil cancels. The range sucks though. Don’t forget about rolling into it!
  • Dashing AB has great range, is really fast, and is good for both stuffing people at long range and crossing under jumps. Remember that crossunder fixes direction.
  • j.B hits both in front of and behind him, allowing him to safely land behind the opponent.
  • df + C cancels into big pursuit and is only -9f on block, so if you space out a character without good close pokes it’s basically safe.
  • His overhead and backdash can startup cancel into j.QCF, use this for instant long range overheads or safe escapes. (You can also tk j.QCF, which will basically send you flying with a ridiculously huge hit box in front of you, this is gimmicky but can be good in time slow.)
  • His best pokes are 2C and 2B. 6f startup each, -6f and -9f on block respectively. Good tick throw setups.
  • His sword pickup is his biggest disadvantage, you need a far knockdown for it to be safe. Unarmed dashing A will usually do, as will a throw with followup attack. (The pickup actually has an attack on it near the end. This can be deflected. Beware.)
  • His super is safe on block but has incredibly dumb startup.

That about sums up the major points. He’s a solid character, so play solid first and worry about damage later.

996

I never thought of Yoshi as a poking character. I tend to play him like a rush down character, and that seems to work. You can play either way with him. He’s got some good pressure tactics, but nothing is entirely safe. I had used his RDP A (or maybe B) attack as the other guy went with Super and my attack beat it. It has some weird properties that’s worth exploring

Why are there so few Gao and Zankuro players for V Special? Gaoh isn’t that bad, doesn’t have many combos (maybe 2 or 3 tops that are useful) but he’s good for mind games and has a command grab with great reach. Plus he looks just like the Soup Nazi from Seinfeld. Example: http://samuraianiv.snkplaymore.co.jp/english/character/gaoh/img/gaoh_p01.jpg and http://dissonanced.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/the_soup_nazi017.jpg

Zankuro isn’t as bad as people make. His downAB is a good anti-air and does a lot of damage. He also has some of the easiest combos in the game. Literally everything is jB, sB, SRK. sB, SRK. crB, Srk. Really easy. Plus his qcf+C is really good for punching mofos out of the sky.

997

The thing is, Yosh’s solid pokes means he can basically stay within relatively close range of the opponent at all times without too much worry. His mixups aren’t fantastic but you can’t shake him.

Gaoh is not good. He has potential but suffers from severe matchup-itis against anyone that knows how to play, particularly characters with good pokes (Jubei) or lots of options(Genjuro). His lack of good specials beyond qcf really hurts his offensive and mixup game. He also has effectively no good lows. (f+C is a low and combos into qcf A at max range, but it requires an instant cancel and isn’t confirmable, so you’re taking a big risk, especially since there’s no reason to block high at that range!)

But his biggest problem is that he just has trouble dealing with option select hops/tech jumps, which you’ll find a lot of better players do. If he just clips them hopping/jumping he goes into a reset situation which he is not well equipped to handle, since the reset recovery invulnerability doesn’t play nice with his cancel periods or recovery. So if they think you’re going to poke instead of try a heavy, they can just gamble with hops all day and there’s basically not much you can do about it aside from trying to read it out with a heavy.

His heavier attacks are pretty good, at least. s.AB is very slow but the range is worthwhile, dash AB is amazing(seriously look at the range on that thing) though its hitbox is low so it won’t catch jumpers easily, and cr.AB comes out very fast, does loads of damage, and, most importantly, is recoil cancelable.

His command grab isn’t a grab, it’s like Yoshitora’s in that it’s a blockable autocombo and 3f startup. It is, however, two things that Yosh’s isn’t: Much longer range, and comboable. The former lets you annoy the hell out of people that try to make you block at close range, and the latter is interesting in combination with block recoil. Close cr.A is cancel on hit and recoil on block, and combos into the grab. If you time the input correctly, it will cancel if it hits and will not if it’s blocked.

Something most people don’t realize is that his deflect has absolutely ridiculous range. I’ve deflected whiffs and jumpins from literally half a screen away with Gaoh. This is arguably one of his best points.

Can’t speak for Zankuro though, I don’t really know the character that well.

998

Fantastic post. I was never interested in Yoshi before, but your post makes me take a second look now.

About Zankuro. If anyone’s played CFJ (Capcom Fighting Jam), he’s a lot like Hauzer in that game. He’s more of a defensive and punishment character. From what I see, you annoy them with qcf+A/B/A+B ground projectile if you can and try to force them to jump. This will allow you to get that juicy 2A+B. You can use DP A/B/A+B to punish whiffs and the A (B might be too, not sure) to do some weak pressure and punish whiffs but timing needs to be on point because of the slight start-up. His A+B has range and can tag anyone foolish to mistime picks and footsie but your ass is grass if its blocked (moreso than other A+Bs). Both standing and crouching B’s are good picks but for such a large character are actually lacking in range, even moreso compared to other pokes (like Goah) but at least you can combo DPs off of them. His A’s are basically his get away from me move and can sometimes set up ticks. And if someone is foolish to do a far jump at you in raged, by all means tag em with his qcf+CD.

Overall though his moves have too much startup on the ground and most characters don’t have to respect his “jump at me”! gameplan, like Genjuro or other projectile people. Suija would be pretty annoying as well. He’s pretty vulnerable to f+D (with good timing) and I don’t see how he’s go against fast pressure characters, like Rera who can wolf cross up all day long.

He can def win though, but yeah he’s low.

999

As to prevent the useful info posted from drowning in this thread, I would recommend to discuss characters in character sections:

SS5/sp Yoshitora thread
http://spirits.kaillera.ru/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=54&p=15084#p15084
SS5/sp Gaoh thread
http://spirits.kaillera.ru/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=73&p=15085#p15085
SS5/sp Zankuro thread
http://spirits.kaillera.ru/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=52&p=15086#p15086

So I responded to your posts in the two latter ones

1000

to answer some q’s.

sf2 was my fav series till 93. ssf2t was the best game they released. now its pretty much shit and every sf series after it (cept ex & movie) has at least 1 game in the newer seties that shits on it. now to make my point. some of these games are better, but have so little improvements over them that a lot of players prefer ssf2t while its not nesacarrelly better. in their views the evolution of the game didnt go as it should have.

my point for ss2 is basically the same, cept in sf we actually got some games with major improvements in them. all the while sshas been riding 3’s nuuts and tweaking it. no matter how good the game becomes and what gameplay mechanics, the chars still resemble 3 too much, thats like having sf3 and sf4 both being based of alpha. even if it where better its only slightly, and the basic game wouldnt change very much even with all the added shit.

all ss games suffer from this. the last ss game to change the franchise was 3, all other ss games afer it are copies.