To counter that
[media=youtube]TlpKqkKd2dM[/media]
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And you call that slow ? Awesome.
This one sentence shows exactly where most of the Smash community goes wrong.
Without technique, the game is NOT all about mixups - it is about creating a gameplan that allows you to consistently win.
In old-school SF2, we use the phrase “sweet spot”. This is your character’s ideal range vs. a specific opponent. Let’s use Boxer vs. Zangief in ST as an example:
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Zangief’s sweet spot is up close, obviously, as he can tick throw for huge damage. Being just outside throw range is also nice because his sweep & lariat will beat just about anything Boxer has.
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Boxer, on the other hand, wants to hang around mid-range. His low dash punch loses to the lariat when close, but beats it from mid-range. Additionally, his fierce punch will beat Gief’s normals due to its longer range. And his low medium punch creates a “wall” of defense that is difficult for Gief to break through; even if he jumps, the MP recovers quickly enough that Boxer can use a headbutt or low fierce punch.
In my view, this, rather than combos, is the most interesting aspect of fighting games: The battle for space between two characters with different goals. The better player almost always wins when this is the focus of the game; when it becomes primarily about mixups, the results are more random.
-Josh
if you can’t be entertained by a match video unless it involves lots of people getting hit by up-close attacks then you dont understand fighting games
Did…did I actually get negged for this?
Ummmm. Me and Ceirnian are actually cool with each other sooooooo…wtf?
Lighten up SRK seriously.
I wouldn’t put too much stock in rep.
I’m aware of this. In fact, I did unlock all the characters and stages within a couple of days of buying the game. Doesn’t change what I said. When I came home that Sunday, I should’ve been able to pick Toon Link, Wolf, or whoever I wanted.
mother fucking thank you.
You guys do know that Gimpy’s actually one of the smart people on SWF right?
Talking to the other people is like trying to make out with a brick wall. Painful and fucking annoying.
I would like to address the change in gameplay style from Melee to Brawl. The new emphasis on spacing and such can be likened to ST: That game is very spacing dependent, and camping with projectiles can be compared to throwing Low Tiger Shots all day. But that’s not accurate at all. The new effectiveness of shield and perfect shield resemble parries: They are a universal option, and work versus strikes, but not throws. That already is enough to encourage defensive play, but with significant mind games. The newfound strength of projectiles, I postulate, is merely an illusion; in time, perfect shielding projectiles will render them far less useful than they first appear. However, there is an extra option that beats both strikes AND throws, and only loses to inaction. This is the roll. Previously, because you could be grabbed out of a roll, it was akin to mobile shielding. Now, it beats both offensive options, oftentimes making the best course of action simply waiting. To make matters worse, the lower hit stun in this game necessitates even more mind games in what were previously combos. Imagine if you could parry during a combo in Third Strike. This is obviously a different situation, but it resembles the mess that parries made.
I took this quote from the SFIV forum, because I feel it makes a very important point. A parry-like mechanic makes it almost impossible to gain offensive momentum. This is why Brawl matches seem like trading hits so much of the time. You have mind games around every hit, and neither player is at a significant advantage. One of the reasons Tekken is so brilliant is that offensive momentum is the name of the game. If you get in a hit that knocks down, you put your opponent in a highly disadvantageous situation. If you guess correctly again, your opponent is once more in that situation. Of course, it’s risky for the attacker too, and the momentum can shift incredibly quickly, but that’s why Tekken matches are so intense. Brawl is lacking that intensity. The decisions that caused this could not have been made in the name of “Fun”. An inexperienced player will not notice these problems in the least. Some may claim that the lack of offensive momentum is good for the less experienced, but it actually makes comeback harder, and these inexperienced players will hardly use these options anyway. Tripping and more lenient edge-grabbing could be claimed to be mechanics to ensure newer players have more fun. These pseudo-parries cannot.
I believe that these new mechanics are the result of new programming, where nobody bothered to make it the same as Melee, rather than a conscious decision by the developers.
P.S. Tripping sucks. Even bad players think it makes the game LESS fun, not more. Sakurai can still make a case that it adds to fun, though.
Yeah you shouldn’t post anymore.
Who cares about rep? Posting about why you get negged doesn’t help anyone and if anything only gives the negger more satisfaction from knowing he/she got a reaction out of you.
Fuck rep.
seriously…
That doesn’t mean he’s incapable of making an ill informed post.
Projectiles (zelda’s especially and to a lesser degree pit’s) are very powerful and pretty much free damage not to mention a very helpful tool in controlling space AKA a big chunk of the game, this will never change. To say perfect shielding will “render projectiles far less useful” let alone comparing it to 3S parries is very ignorant. Parries in 3S are game changing while perfect shielding is nearly on the opposite end of the spectrum in practicality I rarely use PS and i’m pretty sure most of srk doesn’t use it that much either.
Don’t mistake me for saying PS is a useless mechanic, on the contrary I believe it will be a worthwhile tool especially at the top level of play once we all get more experience in brawl. However I also believe use of PS only gives a slight advantage to the user and even mastering PS won’t give you much of an edge against an equally skilled opponent who never PS’s.
To say parries messed up 3S is totally irrelevant and once again ignorant of you so please think before you post or don’t post at all.
I really hope someone closes this thread with the quickness.
I use perfect shielding quite abit actually, it’s a pretty good way to get closer when someone is spamming projectiles (and perfect shielding into an attack is sexy). I don’t think it’s going to make projectiles useless in any way. I mean it’s not like you can perfect shield in the air.
I should have phrased that differently. I was trying to convey that the very low block stun in this game will have major effects, including lowering the usefulness of projectiles. Given the recovery of most of them, even if you use regular shield, the attacker will have little or no frame advantage. Parries transformed Street Fighter 3, and I believe that low hit and block stun will transform this game.
This sums this thread up nicely.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v721/Ryunjin23k/1206748814135.jpg
^^What’s viscant doing with kirby?
so I don’t care. we made it competitive thats is what matters. shit if people can have professiona lcooking then we can have competitive smash.
Those ST matches were awesome to me.
I dunno, I guess that’s only because I actually know what ST’s metagame is like, as opposed to Radical Dreamer who is obviously ignorant of it.
I can’t watch more than 10 seconds of an EVO Melee video without shaking my head in disgust or falling asleep.
/ironic moment
I remember another game that was all about camping, defense and using projectiles. The last time I was on #capcom, way back when:
“Beams ruin MVC2.”
Anyone today want to argue that beams ruin MVC2? Anyone?
Let’s just call out the elephant in the room here and put it plainly in view: Most Smash players don’t understand fighting games. Period.
They think pressing L after every attack adds strategy. (Should I press L or not? Hmm…) They don’t like games that are about space control. They don’t like games that are about character-specific matchups. They believe every move should have the same risk. They believe that not constantly dashing towards the opponent is “camping” and that using good projectiles is “spamming.”
They believe in the fiction of “neutral stages” even though “neutral stages” obviously favor certain characters and play styles. Hey geniuses, you know how Olimar has sucky recovery? Play on a stage without ledges/edges. Oh snap, Olimar just got better! You know how some characters are tall? Play on a stage with platforms. Oh hey look, they can stand underneath and still smash/tilt people on platforms above them.
The day the game comes out they are making lists of stages, characters, techniques and items to ban while fighting over names for “advanced techniques” like hitting a button then hitting it again. Anytime anyone discovers anything, like that Bowser can jump then jump again, it’s “omg ban bowser” and “bowser for top tier!” Because he can jump…and then jump again! Killer!
I’ve stayed silent for a while. Read their boards. Read the discussions here. Tried to understand where they were coming from. But the conclusion is inevitable: the majority of smash players are totally clueless, including many of the “competitive” players. At a fundamental level they simply don’t understand fighting games at all.
I’ll take you up on that.
BEAMS ARE BROKEN TIER:rofl:
Yeah I agree with your post in regards to “smashers” my biased against them might influence me but the truth remains most “smashers” honestly don’t have a clue. Though brawls emphasis on space control and mind games may yield some hope for the smash scene yet.
you don’t understand smash.
l-cancelling isn’t gratuitous. you can sheild toggle to fuck with people’s l-cancels. l-cancelling when attacking a shield requires different timing than when not. l-cancelling vs ice climbers shield is harder. it makes the game play twice as fast, opening up a million more possibilities for combos… strategic combos. l-cancelling is no more than a tool. neutral stages obviously aren’t 100% neutral. lmao you actually thought that? even wondered by falco’s counterpick fd while marths counterpick yoshi’s story? and cf’s dreamland? neuts are merely base stages that are as “neutral as possible” to pick from a random pool for the first match… its not perfect but it’s better than having pokefloats and onnet on random. every body knows what projectiles use and camping are… jesus christ… thats not even the issue. the issue is that it’s easy as fuck and boring as fuck and makes for a wackass game. you’re stupid. when was the last time the melee community wanted to ban anything other than wobbling… which was unlike anything else in the game due to it’s mechanies, so i think it did warrant the discussing concerning banning… yeah like 5 years ago when the ruleset was established.
just say no to imput.
Most smash players are whiney 14 year olds that should be ignored.
It just so happens that this is what makes up 90% of the smash community.
Ignore these people.