I’ll be the one… to take you down.
I mean…it was Marvel heads that gave SSBM the nickname Marvel jr.
I consider myself very pro-competition but I can see what Sakurai is saying:
This is one reason people want games to be balanced, is that they can play their favorite characters and not feel like they are climbing uphill all day. A big reason that supers and combos were created, is so that players can have fun during the match, supers were even intended to create comebacks.
If your a hardcore tournament player in the middle of a tournament match, that’s probably your mindset, but from the designer’s perspective? I don’t think thats true. It would be irresponsible to make a game without intending it to be any fun, and i don’t think that fun and competitive are exclusive.
There’s no real point showing the 10,000th place person. In addition, if the ladder was good, a person that worked hard wouldn’t be 10,000th to begin with, unfortunately most games don’t have great ladder systems.
It can also happen in tournaments,a pool system only ranks the top 20-40%, the rest just get a pool specific placing or ‘did not qualify’
I could go on, but I think your using an archaic standard of ‘competitive gaming’. On one hand, you have games like VF5, that put in tough mechanics just for the sake of having them. On Smash’s side, you have them putting in ‘fun’ mechanics for the sake of having them. I have some issues with both, but i wouldn’t say either philosiphy is non-competitive.
ST slow ?!?! It’s probably the fastest fighter out there, good job on not being taken serious anymore after that stupid remark.
Fixed for you.
I’ve heard Gimpy say things before and his opinion is exactly what he said. He isn’t one of these guys who runs around with a torch to get everyone a-flaming. He’s one of the moderate dudes on our forums who takes a very realistic and pragmatic approach. Stays out of the flame debates. Seriously, if you think Gimpy is “talking shit about a game” you have not seen what 99% of BRAWL SUCKS posts at SWF are or shifted through pages of trash debates like I did before I realized all the arguments were a pointless waste of my time.
Get off his case, people. To say that Gimpy thinks that “Brawl sucks” is not only incorrect but is at best a GROSS polarization of a fairly moderate viewpoint. Gimpy may not like Brawl 100%, but he certainly doesn’t think it will suck like you seem to assume he does. Stop putting words in his mouth.
It’s kind of pointless to aim this question at a community as a whole. Everyone has different reasons and are in different places when it comes to Brawl. To say that opinion is divided is almost to describe the situation incorrectly. Some have already gone back to melee. Some are thinking they will have to. Some are in denial. Some are disheartened but still hopeful. Some are having fun but worried about the metagame, still hopeful. A few think Brawl is awesome and wonder what everyone is so mad about. And of course there are a few zealots on either side who want to jam their opinions down other people’s throats.
So this is one question you can never expect to get one good answer from. There are a million answers even if you forget the chest pounding zealots. My personal answer is to not get my panties in a bunch over why people on the internet haven’t stopped bugging me. They always will.
You have to understand, Sakurai is saying that he wants the “loser” to feel good. That is not a bad thing. If only we all could shrug off everything when we lose.
But the fact is that competition separates people into winners and losers. Winning and losing defines competition, you only get win-win situations when people are cooperating (the opposite). Sakurai seems to think that winners are happy and losers are sad, and he wants both to be happy (i.e. winners). But if both winners and losers are winners, you don’t have competition at all. At best you have cooperation that achieves something, at worst you have a pointless waste of time.
Ok, this is going to get wall of text and theoretical.
The reason why people are unhappy when they lose is because they are comparing themselves to the winner, to someone else. In the worst cases they are comparing themselves to someone who is at a level of skill they find unattainable (“I’ll never be that good… I should just quit now”). So what Sakurai wants to do is remove that method of measurement so that at the end of the day you can’t be unhappy because you lost. That’s his ideal, anyways.
But we already know from competition throughout all of time that competition exists regardless of this. And, in fact, the happiest of people, winners OR no-names, are those who don’t measure themselves compared to other people, but create their own measures for success, such as “can I wavedash now” or “I placed worse in the tourney, but I’m feeling more into it” or “wow, I actually mindgamed that one guy!” stuff like that. It’s been shown to be this way in studies.
So in effect, Sakurai wants to make people more happy, but in reality his decision doesn’t actually affect ANYONE’s happiness as much as he would hope. So much of losing is how you pick yourself up, and the fact is that in Brawl you can still lose, and this is completely independent of Sakurai. Sakurai is chasing after this win/losing ideal while ignoring what it ACTUALLY is which made Melee such an awesome game: It was awesome-deep, but also was awesome for parties, and you could play it whichever way you wanted.
You seem to be missing what Gimpy is saying. It’s the competitive-impeding method of fun which Gimpy is focusing on, not the fact that non-tournament players are having fun themselves. You’re sacrificing one for dubious improvements in the other when, as we can see from Melee, you simply don’t need to do that.
Except that Sakurai isn’t talking about the feasibility of such a ladder or the accuracy of online ladders. Sakurai is shying away from ANY ranking of players as the best, because, again, he hates people being told that they lost. People might get upset over losing.
Is tripping fun? I don’t find it fun. It’s completely random. I trip into an attack and die. Is that fun? At best it is fun when it happens with my buddies, but at worst at a competition it means I lose a position I might have rightfully taken. In essence the game saying to me “you lose” for no reason. I, personally, have a hard time finding that as fun even when I’m playing with my buddies. Sakurai just added a mechanic which decreases competitive fun while, just maybe increasing casual fun. Does that sound like a net improvement to you?
Again, with removal of lcancelling and the like. Those don’t even affect casual play, but they were a nice bonus for competition. lcancelling then removed for dubious benefit, and no benefit at all to non-tournament goers.
I’ll admit that “technique” level can be variable in any competitive game. But if you remove all technique then you just have rock-paper-scissors. And, frankly, most people play more interesting games than that (football, baseball, american football, hockey, basketball, just to name a few). All of these require physical prowess, or technique, as well as strategy. What’s so bad about a game having both?
No technique and we have rock-paper-scissors.
No strategy and we have… what do we have? Is it even a game? Whatever, you need some of both for really good game.
Now, I’m not saying Brawl reaches that rock-paper-scissors threshold where it sucks. I’m not that awesome at Brawl, so I don’t personally know. I’m just saying that it is dangerous to wantonly remove technicality from a game, and maybe Sakurai didn’t have the motives we hoped he would when he did so from Brawl.
Ok dudes, I worked on this for an hour. I hope you put as much thought in your replies and to what I was saying as I have in writing it.
cheerio…s!
[edit]Addendeum: The rock-paper-scissors example isn’t that hot. It’s a late night, bear with me please and just try to understand what I’m saying.
:u: I just wanted to add that we actually love rock-paper-scissors at SRK (no joke). I’m not sure if it’s because it’s just pure strategy and mind games, but I think that’s the case.
We also love “random” games like Uno too.
LOL you called ST slow!!! LOLOLOLLOLOLOL the redardation! :wow:
The entire premise of this thread is retarded. Who cares what Sakurai wants? What matters is what we got. Authorial intent is irrelevant.
The only good point is about tripping, but tripping is entirely avoidable and happens so rarely it doesn’t really matter. (Although it still sucks) Show me a video of someone who “lost because of tripping” and I’ll show you a video of someone who lost thanks to 30 other previous mistakes. (And they’ll be the same video of course)
It’s really funny to see Smash players complain that Brawl is too matchup specific and that “camping” (AKA controlling space) sucks. And that pressing L after every attack added an amazing level of strategy to the previous game. It’s like these people live on another planet.
It isn’t in America, but I recall Tenka doing quite well in Japan. (And I think it still is.)
That’s kind of an unfair point for two reasons since 1) SNK isn’t popular in American, period, and 2) SNK kind of died for a bit, allowing Eolith to take over for a while and screw with franchises. I think it was doing Eolith’s reign (of terror) that two of the worst Samurai Shodown came out and 3 of the worst KOF games out one right after another. That certainly didn’t help either franchise (or the SNK fanbase in general).
I can’t comment on the ST thing, though. Never having played it, ironically reminds of me of Melee in terms of character picking: All I ever see is Fox/O. Sagat whoring projectiles all day long.
Then that’s great for them, that really is.
Especially if they aren’t trying to shove the “fact” that Brawl is “not Melee” down our throats.
Whoa. Whoa. Whoa. Whoa. Whoa. Whoa. Whoa.
Phyvo, this is not my Batman glass.
By “the others” I meant “the others that keep bashing on Brawl for not being Melee”. It was implicit because I had just said that. I wasn’t aiming it at the community as a whole, especially since I know of the division you speak of.
Speaking of that division, I find it kind of “humorous” (read: “ironic” [read: not really ironic]) that a lot of the seems to be caused by people wanting everyone to play Brawl OR Melee.
I mean, I just going straight to Brawl and only Brawl is just as stupid as attempting to hang on to only Melee and impose its shadowy will upon its young some creepy patent-show mother trying to needlessly live vicarous through her doll of a daughter.
Needless, overblown analogy aside, you misunderstood.
I’m not mad or anything, especially since we both appear to post long-winded things.
Just make sure to read more closely next time.
Hey guys, how’s the trolling going? LOL at idiots who play nothing but ST. Maybe it’s just the games I prefer to play, but there’s no doubt ST is slow compared to Smash and Marvel. Especially when you’ve got matches like these:
[media=youtube]9R0sgOaJvMU[/media]
[media=youtube]2R1bvebFk1w[/media]
I’m sorry, maybe “slow” is the wrong word, since that actually implies some kind of movement. I prefer games that are a little less sedentary (this will do) than ST.
Anyone, I know a lot of Nor Cal Smash players really prefer Melee over Brawl, and if they ever get the San Jose Biweeklies back in action, they’ll probably be dedicated to Melee.
. . .
Then what’s the point of this thread? The entire vibe I get from it is he’s trying to weaken support for the game slowly by pushing his own opinion on us but with his reasonable attitude and open approach to discussion. Big name players don’t just post stuff like this unless they’re trying to do something.
QFT in regards to the ST talk.
C-C-C-COMBO BREAKER!! :woot:
If I may add my two cents in this dicussion,
My opinion towards Sakurai is the same as 4chan’s opinion. ie. He is a fantastic troll.
I wouldn’t take his opinions at face value He knows the competitive community exists. He’s having some fun with you guys. The “tripping” feature was there for laughs. (Nothing to do with trying to equalise the playing field for bad players since it’s not game breaking but only annoying) Also, let’s not forget one of the pics in the Smash Dojo site. The one with the line and I quote,
“Real men play with items on!”
Long story short, he’s just messing with you guys.
And he is still messing with the casual community by putting in all the auto-canceling bullshit on aerials. He is pitting us against each other. I say we turn the tides on him. Get your guns, we’re going to japan.
I understand Sakurai’s stance, but he still pisses me off.
I’m not a child. I don’t need to be babysat by a condescending game developer. If (as an example) I want to turn off tripping, I should damn well be able to turn off tripping. If I want to change my Classic Controller’s DPAD to movement and not taunts, I should damn well be able to do that, too.
Then again, this is the same dev that created a wall of unlockables ensuring that you don’t get the game you paid for when you first turn it on, and then claims, “it’s so that everyone can enjoy earning everything” or some other garbage.
The guy thinks he’s his consumers’ father. It’s sickening.
This part here, what? Characters and Stages (the important things) are unlocked so easily it can be done in as little as two days, one if you’re fast. Most of the stuff on the challenges board is just fluff.
Wow…3 characters is all it takes to absolutely pwn you.
Though, speaking of Sirlin, I definitely think that his criticisms of Dead Rising apply directly to Brawl, that the game designer is deliberately trying to prevent you from playing in such a way through annoyances in the game’s design.
Brawl, IMO, should be played with all the characters. All the stages. And all the assist trophies. With the exception of the assist trophies, all of these can be unlocked fairly quickly. This does not change the fact that they shouldn’t need to be unlocked.
IMO, this applies to all fighting games.