Sakura buffs/changes

[Nitro263]

It’s not because her Ultra sucks, though. It’s because her mix-ups and pressure are good.

Even if you jacked up her Ultra damage, her mix-ups and pressure would still be worth going for because they lead to big damage and dizzies. No ultra is going to beat that, unless it does like 600 damage…which would be ridicuous for Sakura.

Why would that be ridiculous? If it did simply 535 max (a little less than Ken’s Shinryuken), it’d be an extra 50 points of damage on a hit confirmed combo into Ultra, or an extra 70 on c.HP > EX Shunpukyaku > Ultra. While that doesn’t sound like much, it’d make the combo worth significantly more than the second reset combo you’d gamble off of going for the reset, or at less than full Ultra, worth substantially more than finishing with Otoshi.

I think she could stand to be a little more dependent on Ultra, as it’s almost not worth using as it is.

[The_Lone_Dragon]

Why would that be ridiculous?

Because she’d be able to kill people with 1 jab/short and 1 good guess.

jab/short > EX Shunpu > jumping attack > mix-up HP > LK shunpu > crouch HP > EX shunpu > Ultra would do more than 800 Hp.
Heaven forbid you replace the jab/short with a close HP > … > Ultra.

Some people only have 900 / 950 health to begin with.

[codallenschmidt]

it takes sagat no good guess and does almost that much…but i guess thats ok right… cause he’s big and has an eye patch… yeah…

[Sugami]

How is her air tatsu shitty, it beats out like 90% of the anti air normals in the game.

I don’t remember someone bitching about it, maybe I missed that But okay, the damage and stun is pretty weak considering it can only hit once, at least Dan’s Knee has increased damage over a single hit of the other Dankuu

would it be too much if her air tatsu crossed over?

It really wouldn’t. I’d extend it to regular Shunpuu as well, it’s not like we’d be hitting with the back end of the move often anyways, not something we could rely on.

Because she’d be able to kill people with 1 jab/short and 1 good guess.

Not like Rufus can’t do that already, he sneezes and is able to combo it into a massive Ultra. Why should Sakura be exempt from a nice reward she most likely had to work a lot harder for?

jab/short > EX Shunpu > jumping attack > mix-up HP > LK shunpu > crouch HP > EX shunpu > Ultra would do more than 800 Hp.
Heaven forbid you replace the jab/short with a close HP > … > Ultra.

More like jab > jab > HP xx EX Shunpuu > Light Attack (unless in corner) > mix-up short > jab > HP xx EX Shunpuu > Ultra (about 600 damage methinks and that’s with full Ultra.)

Some people only have 900 / 950 health to begin with.

Yeah and Sakura’s one of them, 'cept the others generally have better tools and more damaging Ultras.

[The_Lone_Dragon]

More like jab > jab > HP xx EX Shunpuu > Light Attack (unless in corner) > mix-up short > jab > HP xx EX Shunpuu > Ultra (about 600 damage methinks and that’s with full Ultra.)

First of all, you don’t always have to use a light attack to reset. You can use well-timed jump HK/HP’s as one of her options, too, even outside of the corner.

Second, that jab -> HP xx EX Shunpuu after the reset can just be a close HP > lk Shunpu > cr HP > EX Shunpuu > Ultra. Both come out in 3 freams and both are hit confirmable, except this option does more damage and stun.

Anyways, using your way or my way, if Ultra did more damage then the entire easy sequence would be around 800+. All off one hit confirmable 3-frame jab.

Yeah and Sakura’s one of them, 'cept the others generally have better tools and more damaging Ultras.

You guys are seriouslly addicted to ultras. It’s like you can’t imagine a character who can win without depending on her ultra to save her. Honda, Blanka, Bison, Seth, Zangief, Akuma…all characters who can beat the crap out of you without Ultra or comboing into Ultra.

Sakura in SF4 is meant to be one of those characters. If you’re in this thread, that means you’ve spent a lot of time using her, and you know this already.

Not every dang character in the game has to be an Ultra addict. Yay, it works for Ryu and Sagat. So what. Other characters can and do get along just fine through other means.

it takes sagat no good guess and does almost that much…but i guess thats ok right… cause he’s big and has an eye patch… yeah…

“yeah”, what?

You want Sakura to have STUPID good stuff because a character who everyone KNOWS is STUPID has STUPID stuff? Sagat is STUPID. Don’t take balancing advice from STUPID characters that everyone criticizes for being STUPID.

Anyways, my one and only point: Sakura doesn’t need a buffed ultra to be good in SSF4. A buffed foundation would do just as much good, if not more, for her than a buffed Ultra. We’re already getting a glimpse at that buffed foundation via cross-up jump MK.

[Sugami]

First of all, you don’t always have to use a light attack to reset. You can use well-timed jump HK/HP’s as one of her options, too, even outside of the corner.

Try crossing under after a j.HK and you always seem to get jabbed out of anything you try (besides an EX Shou I suppose), I just don’t think it gives you enough time to land meaty attacks but maybe that’s just me. The weird forwards backwards jump thing is, well weird… kinda random and somewhat character specific. So that only really leaves j.LK and s.LP (unless you burn meter for nj.MK) for “reliable” resets leading to 50/50 mix-ups outside of the corner.

Second, that jab -> HP xx EX Shunpuu after the reset can just be a close HP > lk Shunpu > cr HP > EX Shunpuu > Ultra. Both come out in 3 freams and both are hit confirmable, except this option does more damage and stun.

From what I’ve observed people use the 3-hit link combo ending in c.HP (if not blocked), I guess it’s probably because it allows you to see which side you end up since a slight miscalculation will not give you a s.HP xx LK Shunpuu but a Hadouken (negative edge) or worse still Otoshi >.< Me personally will always dash behind c.HP xx EX Shunpuu when testing the water and will do it until they work out how to defend against it

Anyways, using your way or my way, if Ultra did more damage then the entire easy sequence would be around 800+. All off one hit confirmable 3-frame jab.

Yeah providing you were able to get close enough to confirm that jab and guessed right (or they guessed wrong) on the mix-up AND providing they don’t have an easy way out. There’s a lot of IFs in there, a mix-up isn’t guaranteed damage and with more guaranteed damage on the line from an Ultra it’d also make me think twice about whether to risk the mix-up or go for the “guaranteed” big damage.

You guys are seriouslly addicted to ultras.

Yes, that’s because they’re awesome! Sakura’s a combo heavy character, is it unreasonable to want her to combo into her Ultra for a nice reward?

It still needs to be buffed or Shinkuu Hadouken will (completely) overshadow it regardless.

[kbkoolio]

While not everybody needs an ultra to win, those who don’t(and those who do actually) have pretty solid tools, damaging options and don’t rely on gimmicky stuff to win. And please remove gief from that list, he probably lands his ultra a lot more than many characters in the game. So while I agree that buffing up ultra damage to compensate for bad character design is not really a solid change, i believe that her current ultra being upped a bit would actually make it a more viable option to use after an EX tatsu and as a punisher than it is now.

[The_Lone_Dragon]

And please remove gief from that list, he probably lands his ultra a lot more than many characters in the game.

Gief would still own the people he owns with or without Ultra. His ultra is just a bigger, better SPD with 1 frame of invincibility. If you just replaced any Ultra attempt with an SPD instead, he would still be deadly to most of the cast. It’s not like his Ultra allows him to do things he can’t already do with SPD. It makes his life a little easier, sure, but it certainly doesn’t define his entire gameplan.

[Nitro263]

Because she’d be able to kill people with 1 jab/short and 1 good guess.

jab/short > EX Shunpu > jumping attack > mix-up HP > LK shunpu > crouch HP > EX shunpu > Ultra would do more than 800 Hp.
Heaven forbid you replace the jab/short with a close HP > … > Ultra.

Some people only have 900 / 950 health to begin with.

This would only be the case if building that much Ultra didn’t mean you had to be beat within an inch of your life. Ken’s j.HP -> cl.HK -> HK Tatsu does 400 dmg and 600 stun. j.HP is an ambiguous crossup, Hk Tatsu leads to a risky mixup. Meaning j.HP -> cl.HK -> HK Tatsu > Grab > j.HP -> cl.HK -> HK Tatsu is enough to kill anyone. Meterless. 2 ambiguous crossups, and one good guess. And you don’t need EX or Ultra meter to do it.

He’s not overpowered. Why would this be the case for Sakura? She need to build at least 2 bars and full Ultra to do that.

[Nitro263]

First of all, you don’t always have to use a light attack to reset. You can use well-timed jump HK/HP’s as one of her options, too, even outside of the corner.

Second, that jab -> HP xx EX Shunpuu after the reset can just be a close HP > lk Shunpu > cr HP > EX Shunpuu > Ultra. Both come out in 3 freams and both are hit confirmable, except this option does more damage and stun.

Anyways, using your way or my way, if Ultra did more damage then the entire easy sequence would be around 800+. All off one hit confirmable 3-frame jab.

Unless that sequence already does 750 damage (and I don’t believe it does), It wouldn’t hit for 800. 100 points more damage on her Ultra leads to 50 - 70 more damage than normal after scaling.

You guys are seriouslly addicted to ultras. It’s like you can’t imagine a character who can win without depending on her ultra to save her. Honda, Blanka, Bison, Seth, Zangief, Akuma…all characters who can beat the crap out of you without Ultra or comboing into Ultra.

Honda and Bison. Blanka, Gief, Akuma and Seth all have very good Ultras that are used well in their game, comboable or not. Honda and Bison have better ways to deal a large amount of damage than Sakura does.

Sakura in SF4 is meant to be one of those characters. If you’re in this thread, that means you’ve spent a lot of time using her, and you know this already.

Not every dang character in the game has to be an Ultra addict. Yay, it works for Ryu and Sagat. So what. Other characters can and do get along just fine through other means.

And Sakura doesn’t. By any means. Not enough. Having both her Ultras be viable is a good start, along with the foundation fixes. She doesn’t hit hard enough.

Anyways, my one and only point: Sakura doesn’t need a buffed ultra to be good in SSF4. A buffed foundation would do just as much good, if not more, for her than a buffed Ultra. We’re already getting a glimpse at that buffed foundation via cross-up jump MK.

She needs a lot more than that to hang with the upper tiers. I have yet to see how having a good Ultra I and II would be a bad idea from a balance standpoint.

[The_Lone_Dragon]

Meaning j.HP -> cl.HK -> HK Tatsu > Grab > j.HP -> cl.HK -> HK Tatsu is enough to kill anyone. Meterless. 2 ambiguous crossups, and one good guess. And you don’t need EX or Ultra meter to do it.

He’s not overpowered. Why would this be the case for Sakura? She need to build at least 2 bars and full Ultra to do that.

Is a jump HP as easy to land, versatile, or as safe as a crouching 3-frame jab/short? No.
And, a grab setup like that with such predictable timing is easy to break via delayed option select.

The two aren’t even close to comparable.

Also, Sakura’s resets build their own meter as you do them, so the EX requirement isn’t really much of an issue.

[Nitro263]

Oh, did you miss the part where it’s stated that Ken’s j.HP is an ambiguous crossup when used correctly? And maybe you forgot about Ken’s kara grab, which can very easily be used to mixup an opponent and throw them off there option select techs.

Also, it’s a mixup in which Ken has more than one option, and is therefore about a 50/50 mixup like Sak’s resets are. Neither are guaranteed. The grab sets you up for anothe ambiguous crossup.

Harder to land? Sure. But once you land the first crossup the rest has comparable odds. Sak would need one 50/50 guess for “800” damage (it wouldn’t be that high, BTW). Ken needs two 50/50 guesses for confirmed death on all. Meterless.

You didn’t even take into account that full Ultra means Sak dies in one or two good hits, or that that sequence requires 50% meter. Even if it did do that much damage, it’d be simply worth using, not abusable. And it wouldn’t do that much damage unless the Ultra was buffed to a ridiculous amount, not 535. Period.

[Skatan_Milla]

And, a grab setup like that with such predictable timing is easy to break via delayed option select.

Delayed comboable normal with fast startup or instant throw, or very delayed throw.
The option select isn’t unbeatable, and when beaten it leads to big damage for most characters.

You would think a Ken player who puts people in that mixup all day would know how to handle someone trying to option select their tech.
Landing a throw in SFIV with characters with decent throw range is not difficult, especially not when you have Ken’s kara range.

[The_Lone_Dragon]

Delayed comboable normal with fast startup or instant throw, or very delayed throw.
The option select isn’t unbeatable, and when beaten it leads to big damage for most characters.

You would think a Ken player who puts people in that mixup all day would know how to handle someone trying to option select their tech.
Landing a throw in SFIV with characters with decent throw range is not difficult, especially not when you have Ken’s kara range.

Never said option select was unbeatable. However, in situations where the throw timing will be predictable like this, it’s more beatable.

And, even with the OS counters, the more things Ken has to prepare for, the worse his “mix-up” becomes. Sakura’s reset mix-ups also include a cross-up directional element that bypass the whole option select issue altogether.

Also, according to frame data, Ken’s roundhouse hurricane kick puts him at -1 on hit. So, I don’t even know why we’re comparing that to Sakura’s resets.

EX Hurricane would put him at +1…but, then the whole “meterless” argument is lost. And, it still doesn’t have the cross-up directional element that Sakura has.

Ken’s hurricane kick mix-up potential <<< Sakura’s reset mix-up potential.

[Skatan_Milla]

I wasn’t comparing the two, I just wanted to point out how to beat the option select since you made it sound like the end-all of mixups.

I’m guessing you’re saying Sakura has better mixup potential than Ken does, and if so you are right.
First of all she has the option of crossing under or not, but she also has the option of crossing under or not into throw which is difficult to break.
You can also make an obvious crossunder or non-crossunder and delay a c.hp x lk tatsu since the opponent reacts tot he fact that they didn’t block something they will try to tech the throw.

Ken will always end up in front of his opponent for his mixup so it’s entirely based on timing rather than positioning AND timing.

Back to Sakura’s crossunder mixup, it doesn’t end at the crossunder.
While some people were writing they use c.hp x ex tatsu directly after the mixup, I disagree with that tactic since it’s just a “random” 50/50.

Doing crossunder into c.lp, c.lp, c.mk x hp sho OR c.lp, c.lp, c.hp x ex tatsu does remove a lot of that randomness and replaces it with bigger mixup potential.
If the initial crossunder lands then you get nice confirmable damage, if it’s blocked you can stop at c.lp and force them into the close range mixup of delayed c.hp or instant throw.
While ex tatsu leaves you +4 at block, it also puts you at a range where you can’t put them in a 50/50, you can just stuff them, not a bad option but it’s easier to defend against.

On the topic of the crossunder, it should be possible to hitconfirm c.lp into c.hp, but it would be difficult to react with the proper options on block.
But if you want less scaled damage it might be worth thinking about it?
My reasoning is looking at the frames c.lp has 10 frames in total and a hitstun of 13 frames, that’s 26 frames in total, subtracting the startup and active frames (5) you end up at 21 frames, that’s 1/3 of a second to make the confirm which sound entierly possible to me.
I’ve had several times with her that I’ve confirmed c.lp into c.mk when I’ve gotten “random” hits on it, I think more people have done this as well?

[megadeth078]

seriously, a dive kick would help so damn much

so would a 720

[Destin]

Sakura does great damage and stun, and her mixup is way better than being -1 next to someone. That is a mixup for me, not Ken. He can’t even get ch dp there. And she does great damage as is, bison does like nothing, unless you luck out with jump mps.

She needs better ways to get in, taking her mixups and combos from a 9 to a 10 isn’t going be that helpful. Taking her midgame from a 2 to a 5 would be nice though.

[ShogunFlow]

Sakura needs that action where she sways back and forth after she wins.

This, in and of itself is a buff I would like to see Sakura have :smokin:

Shit, they’re adding a few of the Alpha characters, they could at least give Sakura her Alpha taunt.

[codallenschmidt]

@ the lone dragon
i dont think anyone as ever said all she needs is more damage on her ultra and she would be good. i’ve brought up a lot of things if u want to look back, all i said about a more damaging ultra is that it wouldnt be broke. sakura has a lot of problems but to make the old ultra viable now u would have to make it do something more or different like less recovery so we could keep pressure, make it travel farther so go thru fire balls or increase the damage so u had a good reason to give up your pressure. as of now i dont think ill use it again

[Killer_Jigglypuff]

Sakura needs that action where she sways back and forth after she wins.

http://www.slateman.net/images/gaming/gifs/sakura-dance.gif

This, in and of itself is a buff I would like to see Sakura have :smokin:

Shit, they’re adding a few of the Alpha characters, they could at least give Sakura her Alpha taunt.

I was absolutely baffled when this wasn’t one of her win poses. Don’t drop the ball Capcom! This buff is sure to make her God Tier!