Hyper Street Fighter II - The Anniversary Edition
Bumping this old ass thread to increase tiger awareness.
Best normals in the game, I don’t care what anyone says.
What can you comment on his normals? And match-ups? So far, there is little information for it (new, old).
O.Sagat is really good, but he dies to the top 4. N.Sagat is cool, but he has trouble in many match-ups, and many of the things O.Sagat does safely, he does with a risk.
I disagree with “best normals”: Chun Li, Claw , Boxer and Dee Jay are ahead, but I would say he does have the best sweep. I rate it ahead of Gief’s and Ryu’s, due to its range (much better) and recovery (comparable to that of Gief’s). I feel his aerial RH is good not really cos the move itself, but cos of how long it stays active and his jump arc.
I don’t think he flat out dies to the top 4. He is part of the top 4, unless you’re talking about Chun… he doesn’t lose to Chun.
I’m not a Sagat expert… but here’s my opinion on his matchups. I don’t like matchup numbers that much, but it is the only way to quantify them. I would prefer to do some writeups on each matchup, since that says a lot more, but too lazy lol. Maybe I’ll do em one day at a time. Nothing surprising here, maybe Fei?
About his normals, it’s a personal thing; I feel very comfortable with them, I feel like I can counter almost anything with them if used right. The hitboxes may not be the best but the range and positioning of his normals are incredible.
EDIT: I may have done the math wrong on that chart. haha I rushed it and was too lazy to double check
Yeah, I did not mean die in the sense of being free, but just having disadvantage. I certainly know even less about Sagat, but it looks OK.
As for the normals, against my character, a few of them are enough to really piss me off: cr.RH, st.Short, st.Frc, st.RH, aerial RH. Some even work as option-selects if you avoid a meaty Tiger with a reversal, which is even more infuriating, lol.
Yeah I love the st.rh / rh tiger OS, it actually has some good uses. st.mp (incredibly useful vs sim, vital for that matchup) and cr.hp are good too. Actually, all of his normals are good. cr.lk ar cr.lp are good for baits, cr.mp is a good normal to cancel off of (st.lk does little hit/blockstun and st.lk xx tiger can be reversaled) or follow up with another normal into low tiger. his cr.mk is good to combo into tiger knee and again, it has the benefits of doing medium attack dizzy and hit stun, making an airtight blockstring into low tiger (not for n.sagat though). Even st.lp has its uses for feints or as a safer alternative to st.mp/hp against shotos (obviously doesn’t have the same great range). st.mk is obviously excellent for combos with o.sagat, but the hitbox is decent as a quick aa and you can actually link into far st.mk from a cr.mk, which is good for n.sagat since his rh low tiger doesn’t recover fast enough to keep him at neutral frame adv. when canceled off a cr.mk if it combos.
When it comes to his jumping normals, his air punches are good against characters with a strong air game (j.lp against claw, j.mp/hp vs Dic), and n.sagat has j.mk crossup of course (hard to use), but both o.sagat and n.sagat can crossup with j.lk, but it’s incredibly difficult to space.
One thing I love about N.Sagat is his close st.hp, you can pull off some of the sexiest dizzy combos with it.
YMMV
One of the guys who gives me really stressful and close battles on GGPO is Hydlide. As you guys know, dude’s a beast. His O.Chun is really annoying.
djf and papercut were talking about preparations OSs such as:
[media=youtube]ak12Obf2x7g[/media]
I got interested. So I began thinking of ways I could apply OSs to Sagat’s game. One of things that annoys me most when I play this guy’s O.Chun is that whenever I have him knocked, all I can really do is throw a meaty low tiger because he does a reversal SBK anytime I try to get close and it’s hard to really do anything.
The great thing is that Sagat’s cr.hp stuffs SBK. So what does that mean? It means I can do a safe jump on O.Chun with a preparation cr.hp if she reversals, and it’ll stuff it! I tested it with djf and it works. Luckily these preparation OSs are really easy to perform, so it doesn’t require any hardcore grinding or training. Anyways, I’m really happy that I know have a way to approach o.chun on knockdown. Now she’ll be forced to block a safe jump, lose her charge, and will have to face the inability to throw soften (while I can) and my TU. Even though this thread is old and dead and no one seems to care, I thought I’d share this anyways.
I’m not really sure who else I could apply this to though.
An example of the “Shiki Upper” as applied to Sagat. But, couldn’t you also just do a built-in DP, or does that not work with Sagat?
No reason why he couldn’t do a built in dp, or anyone else could, but SBK beats TU.
Sagat and Hawk’s meaty uppercuts can also be thrown like the Shoryuken, if timed badly.
Is hammer UnderKingdom from ggpo? They play a lot a like. same color too.
Bump
I have gathered N.Sagat’s average damage and stun range data and added it to the Wiki this afternoon.
Here is the data in text format:
close
11 dmg, 0-5 sd, 40 st, 2 super
19 dmg, 5-11 sd, 60 st, 4 super
21 dmg, 10-16 sd, 80 st, 5 super
11+11 dmg, 0-5 sd, 40 st, 2 super
12/16 dmg, 5-11 sd, 60 st, 4 super
14/20 dmg, 10-16/1-7 sd, 80/70 st, 5 super
far
11 dmg, 0-5 sd, 40 st, 2 super
19 dmg, 5-11 sd, 60 st, 4 super
21 dmg, 10-16 sd, 80 st, 5 super
-
-
-
cr
11 dmg, 0-5 sd, 40 st, 2 super
19 dmg, 5-11 sd, 60 st, 4 super
21 dmg, 10-16 sd, 80 st, 5 super
4 dmg, 0-5 sd, 40 st, 2 super
17 dmg, 5-11 sd, 60 st, 4 super
22 dmg, 5-11 sd, 130 st, 5 super
neutral
11 dmg, 1-7 sd, 40 st, 2 super
19 dmg, 5-11 sd, 50 st, 4 super
21 dmg, 11-17 sd, 60 st, 5 super
12 dmg, 1-7 sd, 40 st, 2 super
19 dmg, 5-11 sd, 50 st, 4 super
21 dmg, 11-17 sd, 60 st, 5 super
diagonal
11 dmg, 1-7 sd, 40 st, 5 super
19 dmg, 5-11 sd, 50 st, 4 super
21 dmg, 11-17 sd, 60 st, 5 super
14 dmg, 1-7 sd, 40 st, 2 super
19 dmg, 5-11 sd, 50 st, 4 super
21 dmg, 11-17 sd, 60 st, 5 super
High Tiger
16 dmg, 9-15 sd, 100 st
17 dmg, 9-15 sd, 100 st
19 dmg, 9-15 sd, 100 st
Low Tiger
15 dmg, 9-15 sd, 100 st
16 dmg, 9-15 sd, 100 st
17 dmg, 9-15 sd, 100 st
Tiger Uppercut
30/27 dmg, 3-9 sd, 40 st
33/30 dmg, 3-9 sd, 40 st
16+11+4 dmg, 0-4 sd, 20 st
Tiger Knee
19+16 dmg, 2-8 sd, 90 st
21+16 dmg, 2-8 sd, 90 st
22+16 dmg, 2-8 sd, 90 st
throws
32(34) dmg 7-13 sd, 100 st
super
14 dmg, 0-4 sd, 20 st
O.Sagat damage data:
close
11 dmg, 0-5 sd, 40 st
19 dmg, 5-11 sd, 60 st
24 dmg, 10-16 sd, 80 st
11+11 dmg, 0-5 sd, 40 st
11/16 dmg, 5-11 sd, 60 st, 4 super
14/20 dmg, 10-16/1-7 sd, 80/70 st
far
11 dmg, 0-5 sd, 40 st
19 dmg, 5-11 sd, 60 st
24 dmg, 10-16 sd, 80 st
-
-
-
cr
11 dmg, 0-5 sd, 40 st
19 dmg, 5-11 sd, 60 st
24 dmg, 10-16 sd, 80 st
11 dmg, 0-5 sd, 40 st
17 dmg, 5-11 sd, 60 st
26 dmg, 5-11 sd, 130 st
neutral
11 dmg, 1-7 sd, 40 st
19 dmg, 5-11 sd, 50 st
24 dmg, 11-17 sd, 60 st
12 dmg, 1-7 sd, 40 st
19 dmg, 5-11 sd, 50 st
26 dmg, 11-17 sd, 60 st
diagonal
11 dmg, 1-7 sd, 40 st
19 dmg, 5-11 sd, 50 st
24 dmg, 11-17 sd, 60 st
14 dmg, 1-7 sd, 40 st
19 dmg, 5-11 sd, 50 st
26 dmg, 11-17 sd, 60 st
High Tiger
16 dmg, 9-15 sd, 100 st
17 dmg, 9-15 sd, 100 st
19 dmg, 9-15 sd, 100 st
Low Tiger
15 dmg, 9-15 sd, 100 st
16 dmg, 9-15 sd, 100 st
17 dmg, 9-15 sd, 100 st
Tiger Uppercut
29/28 dmg, 3-9 sd, 40 st
33/29 dmg, 3-9 sd, 40 st
36/33 dmg, 3-9 sd, 40 st
Tiger Knee
19+16 dmg, 2-8 sd, 90 st
21+16 dmg, 2-8 sd, 90 st
22+16 dmg, 2-8 sd, 90 st
throws
32(34) dmg 7-13 sd, 100 st
Fierce and aerial Roundhouse do much more damage, Tigers and Knees do the same damage, TU does much more damage.
Weird, it always seems O.Gat’s tigers do much more stun than N. Gats, especially when I watch the dizzy bar.
I will review that later, then, when I get home. But just the way higher rate O.Sagat throws projectiles already changes how much more stun he does.
Well, I didn’t mean like that. It’s just with O.Gat it appears there is a higher chance to stun off of two tigers compared to n. gat.
I know, man. Well, it can be checked from that formulas from Dammit’s debug breakpoints that the stun formula is a base number and a random number that ranges from -3 to +3. This base number ranges from 1 (supers) to 14 (unnerfed heavy jumping attacks), if I am not mistaken. Also, IIRC, that random value does not change in the sense it is the same table and same offset. So, you mean there is a different base number, and you may be right. When I tested red and blue Hadous, I mistakenly stated the range was the same. It wasn’t. But now I can just see the base number, so it is easier to check stun.
BTW, IIRC, Dhalsim did look like he took more stun. Gotta test that again.
Finally, where’s the damn stun bar and timer for SSF2X??? 
*I am speaking in “for dummies” mode so everyone can understand, else I’d just send a PM.
Edit: I am still impressed his damn Fierce TU does the same damage of a Jab SPD. BS.
Alright, I’ve just arrived at home and tested it right away. Both Sagat versions do the same stun damage with their Tigers.