Only thing I want Sagat to lose is his j.mp.
sagat will be nerfed like crazy super lol, he will go dowwwnnnnnn in the tier list
I can stuff jmp regularly even with flashkick so other characters can surely deal with it
Whoa whoa whoa… I just saw this thread for the first time…
The irony of a Sagat improvement thread is hilarious.
You want all his match ups to go up to 8-2 in SSF4? Lulz…
ugh … your changes make Sagat better not worse.
You give him footsies but takeaway what? st. RH range? but don’t mention it’s retarded hitbox that is the first hit? The second hit only needs to not hit crouchers otherwise it’s fine and easily played around, first hit is just to good and beats all footsie pokes that aren’t godly (ryu cr. MK as a good, but it can even beat that somtimes).
Sagat with footsies is CvS2 sagat which is the most scary sagat … ugh … ever with O. Sagat being a close second.
You give his overhead more plus on hit? why so if meatied you can get an overhead combo? You know if you meat his overhead you can alread do f. FP>cr. Jab>EX Tigershot for fat overhead combo damage …
His jab needs to be 4 frames
His st. RH needs to have the hit box reworked so first hit isn’t so messed up, and the second hit can’t hit crouchers.
Needs Ultra and f. RH damage lowered (Ultra by about 15%, f. RH needs to only deal 100 damage)
Needs MK Tiger knee ALWAYS negative (standing punishable, cr. not punishable)
LK Tigerknee if meatied or blocked crouching + on block, - on block if blocked standing pretty good way of designing it imo since everyone can alternate how they block to deal with knee and you get some extra pressure if they block wrong.
This will put him in the range of other mere mortal characters.
I think, after learning how to deal with him, the vs. Sagat match up is kinda fun. The only thing that really bothers me is his damage output. Really, if he just did a LITTLE bit less damage, it wouldn’t be quite as intolerable.
Standing RH is more of a pain in the ass to me than f+RH. It eats step kicks for breakfast… 
If his damage was a little nerfed, I could tolerate them not changing anything else. Then again, besides Chun, all the characters I play have an SRK, so I don’t really worry too much in TK loops…
Sure, he’s pretty beefy. He hits like a truck and has really good stamina to boot. You can’t mess up against him, but his extra stamina and the fact that all of his moves knock you to the opposite side of the room is kinda lame. But hey, somebody’s gotta be the best, right?
I’d much rather have a bad ass character like Sagat as top tier than a lame looking one like Rufus, Fuerte, Gief, or whoever…
Just thought I would put my $.02 in there…
I still think you should take away the fact that f.rh juggles. Knockdown out of the air sure, but not juggle.
Sagat IMPROVEMENT thread?
Is this a joke? Someone who has his own tier at the top does NOT need improvement.
To improve a charcter doesn’t necessarily mean to make him better, improvement could be used in the context that these changes will improve the game THROUGH this character by means of better balance
Good point. 
I nerfed the stuff that mattered namely his raw damage output from his ultra and his f+hk.
Yeah I already know all about his meaty overhead combos. I posted quite a few in the Sagat forums. It wasn’t for that. It was mostly to keep momentum since his grab is so fucking trash and the grapple system in this game is fucking garbage. That said his overhead would need to be a counter hit for that combo to work that you listed.
No one should have a 4 frame jab. It’s a fucking abomination. Everyone should have a 3 frame jab. I already said re work his hk hitbox.
As for TK. Meh give him his old TK. I would prefer that anyway.
But honestly…all the good characters in this game deal with TK traps just fine.
How about Capcom get off Sagat’s dick and do some work with other chars?
That’s the real fuckin problem. Half the cast have some serious fuckin issues that need to be addressed.
Daigo proves that at a high level Sagat can be dealt with provided your character isn’t balls off the walls trash and actually has answers.
Capcom needs to do a better job of giving the cast answers to shit.
That said TK traps really aren’t THAT serious. You can fucking backdash away from them.
As soon as you start saying the rush down options of rush down characters should be equal with the rush down options of a zoning character you automatically lose the argument. They are totally different character types. Maybe you think Sagat should have command throw too.
Sagat has every tool to keep an opponent off of him, he shouldn’t be at an advantage up close to anybody, but bc of the way TK works now it really doesn’t matter.
Oh and BTW Bisons’s mk and HK scissors already are unsafe, even if spaced properly. Ex scissors is way more punishable than EX TK.
^^^ Daigo uses Ryu though, and Sagat is Ryu’s perfect nerfshield as someone else has said. IMO Ryu is even better than Sagat.
These kids coming into the thread just don’t know. It’s easy to say Sagat doesn’t need any improvements but there are definitely things he is lacking in that if are not fixed now…will make him Alpha 2 status by the next game (mediocre).
^^^ Um what are you talking about? Every character is suppose to have strengths and weakness. What exactly is sagat lacking? Should he be given Chun Li pokes and Bison speed?
The thing is, Sagat is the only character who pulls in a friggin 96 in total matchup advantage numbers in the tier chart which is like what, elevel points above the highest placed high tier character? Not to mention that giving other characters too many tools to deal with Sagat can potentially risk ruining the tight matchup balanced amongst every other character in the game that’s not Sagat. There’s only so much you can do to boost the low tier characters, and as you mentioned, everyone already really has an answer to TK traps which is true.
If we can agree that the Ryu/Boxer sweetspot is more or less as fair as you can get for character balance in the context of Street Fighter IV, perhaps lowering Sagat just a tad so he fits right in there, and then trying to move up more characters into that high tier/uppermid region might not be such a bad thing. As it stands now he may not be INCREDIBLY broken, but he has no certified bad matchups and only 3 or 4 even ones.
HAVING said that, I really think the only thing that needs to be done is to A) Lower his damage output B) Decrease his vitality so he takes just as much damage as the average character and C) Rework his s.hk hitbox so he doesn’t dominate the fat characters as eassily. Nothing else needs to be done really. Shots, Uppercuts and his general zoning game should stay the same and I even think that the hitbox of s.hk should only be only reworked beneath the calf so it remains a fantastic anti-air from a bit farther out than the Max TU range.
I do feel he deals with Focus charges a bit too eassily within the footsie range, but perhaps they shouldn’t nerf that aspect of his game so much as repackage it into something a bit more interesting. I have a few ideas on it but Im don’t play Sagat anymore and Im not sure how his meta game has evolved so I won’t supply any potentially stupid ideas on that quite yet if at all.
Well, that’s all I guess. I really hope they don’t go overboard with nerfing Gat though, all he ultimately needs is to gasp have a pair of bad matchups and to get some of his 7-3 blowouts within range for the other character to have a winning chance. In theory it’s simple but it’s clearly going to be hard, but I think they key is in moderation.
Wait wait.
Sagat Ultra’s should glitch in the corner?
Low short should be slower AND have less range then low jab?
Stand short should have more range then low forward?
There are some seriously fucked up things about Sagat that need addressing.
Even the King has his issues.
The only way to truly improve Sagat is to give him a fullscreen unblockable ultra with super armor that hits his opponent no matter what they’re doing (even if they’re on their back) and automatically awards him the match. It also has the added perk of exiling his opponent from Live and PSN for a week. Every time they try to log on they’ll get a message saying, “The King has banished you from his court for (_) days peasant.”
After reading this thread, every single post, I fear if Capcom listens to the people whining like DSP, Sagat will be mid to low tier by the release of SSFIV…and then Ryu will be top tier, if he isnt already.
Oh well, somebody has to be the top of the tier list, I just wish eventhubs would come out and say Gen is top tier and then all the scrubs would yell at him instead of Sagat.
I dont’ care if sagat/ryu are bottom tier in super. At least we’ll see new characters for a change, and hopefully characters that don’t have fireballs.
I’d be pretty much alright with Sagat if Sagat was more like…
double newSagat = ((oldSagat - (F.RH * .5)) * .98); (If his forward roundhouse wasn’t a guaranteed ultra juggle and was just a pretty badass anti-air, and if he in total was about 98% of who he is now, I’d be entirely fine with his character)
For the most part Sagat is fine, it’s just…a tad ridiculous how much comeback potential he has with a single forward roundhouse to ultra.