Crouching avoids the ultra, but the fireball is still unblockable.
I disagree. First of all, changing one move on two characters doesn’t make for a smarter game in general. Especially since there are still characters that have heavily damaging, easy to mash out, high priority meterless DPs (Ken, possibly Dudley).
Aside from that, having an invincible DP that can be made safe at the cost of half meter doesn’t make the game dumb regardless. It’s been done before, and doesn’t really serve to make the games it’s been implemented in any “dumber” (GG, BB). That was never the problem. Problem with SFIV was that mashing a reversal was too easy, and blockstrings weren’t tight enough to prevent the reversal. And we have no news on whether or not that’s changed at all.
Lastly, it’s not just that “now Ryu and Sagat are less reliant on uppercuts to make comebacks”. Bull. Sagat doesn’t do damage anymore. He landed a BnB on Juri (a low health character to begin with) with less than 15% health remaining, and it didn’t kill her. Not being able to do damage is a big problem, as it equates to that many more hits Sagat has to land and that many more mistakes Sagat has to capitalize on just to break even with his opponent. I don’t even play Sagat, but the more I see of him in Super the worse it looks for him. Royally screwing over characters isn’t cool, or smart.
As for Ryu, forget being “less” reliant on his DP, judging by how it was getting stuffed and trading, it doesn’t look like he can rely on his DP at all anymore. At least the LP one. Being able to land a plain jump in clean on a character using a DP is retarded. Especially when it’s not the case across the board.
So basically “If your character sucks now, oh well, pick another one”? That’s not really any consolation, especially to the people who weren’t tier whoring and picking Sagat because they actually liked the character. I never liked Sagat at all, to be honest, but it’s pretty bad when they fuck a character up like that. Yeah, it happens all the time, in just about every fighting game, but that doesn’t make it suck any less.
Oh well. With the statements from Ono that they built SSFIV so that it could be online updated in the future this time, hopefully they’ll change it so that they actually fix the problems with the system instead of just dicking over the characters that happened to benefit from it.
Look, the damage is less, but it doesn’t fundamentally change the way he plays, be happy with that. He is still the strongest zoner in the game, he can still confirm ultra from half screen without meter (f. hk > ultra) he can still do the lol combo, he still has tiger knee traps (though not as free with st. lk nerf). Less damage just makes him less stupidly unfair.
And as far as the debate as to whether he was, he was. He just was. The Japanese BP rankings are the telltale sign of this. How the best players in the world play every single day is the best indicator we could ever have. He wasn’t as god tier as metaknight in brawl, msp in mvc2, or something like that, but still pretty bad.
I mean, other chars have it worse than sagat in terms of tools in super. Gen’s changes took away his bnb and jump arc, which obviously completely changes the characters playstyle. Just saying, there are worse things in the world. We can still play him as we always have, it’s just that when we win, there will be less time left on the game clock.
Are you really that dense?
everyone knows there will always be top tier. But if we can we need to try to shorten the gap between tiers
We are moving to SSFIV from SFIV why not try to fix it while at it?
Why do you keep eating food when you will always be hungry in next 5 hours? Just go hungry , you’ll be hungry anyways
Oh yeah, I could’ve used better example like washing clothes, but you get the idea
Please embrace the change for everyone’s sake and stop trying to hold on to the status quo
I do not worry about Dudley being OP character like how Sagat was in vanilla SFIV
Plus if you are another Sagat player who is running away to Dudley because of balance issue, good luck. You are gonna need it to make Dudley top tier character
Switching to Dudley is not going to save your asses.
uhhh are you dense?
I specifically stated that its a good thing that in super the devs are making changes. Even then a top tier will exist and people will bitch and moan. Seeing as how there are 10 new characters being introduced, and general consensus is that Dudley is seemingly the strongest in the roster, people will bitch about him just as much as they did with Sagat.
already stated i will continuing playing sagat numerous times.
Save your asses? From what? Losing in a fighting game? Good heavens not losing!
General impressions are Dudley is very very strong and most likely candidate for the top tier position. Sure he may not do the monstrous damage sagat did, but neither did chun or ken in 3s. so who knows, it is all speculation right now, but as it stands, Dudley is most likely gonna be the new sagat. Even if he wasn’t, someone will be, and the bitching and moaning will continue.
But hey, with no arcade version, why not.
Maybe they could do a fighting game first and patch the home release into starcraft like balance THEN release the balanced arcade version.
Since I missed that you said you were gonna keep playing Sagat in SSFIV, i’ll take back that part.
And about all the QQing issue, your position didn’t seem this specific when you responded to me earlier. anyways if this is it, I have no problem agreeing with you.
However, the most ridiculous argument in this thread is that saying that Capcom should’ve left how vanilla SFIV Sagat was just because he is probably the weakest #1 character through out the fighting games.
Why are you guys acting like he is gonna be the WORST character now?He’s no Vega…I mean it’s kinda stupid they nerfed him SO much, especially the st.lk, but he’s not going to be THAT bad.I mean, besides lk, he still has all of his tools, actually he may be the only vanilla char with a new tool( angry scar) of which potential we do not know yet.It’s just that his tools will deal less damage.Take gen for exemple.He no longer has his most important tools, and has lost even his BNB.Granted, he may have something new, but without the EX oga inv frames, he will be one of the 2 chars in the entire game that have no inv frames what so ever on ex special moves at least.Vega veing the second.
I hate when people repeat in these discussions that there will always be op characters and others that suck in every game. Granted, that’s how it generally turns out, but does that really mean it should be the accepted norm? Are devs really that inept when it comes to balancing the games they create or is the gap in character quality/strength something intentionally done as Seth Killian has seemed to suggest? Either way I say it’s lazy and I don’t know why its become one of these things you just kind of accept. “Yeah it’s dumb but its always been that way so what’re ya gonna do.”
SF4 was very balanced relative to the norm, but there were still those things in there that seemed so obvious they left you scratching your head as to what the devs were thinking. Now many of these items are being changed in the name of balance, but from the sounds of it others remain and new ones have been added (looking at you, Duds.) It’s gotta be intentional.
I’m just happy that I get to pick Sagat now that he’s no longer preposterous.
Even with Sagat being toned down, I don’t think playing him would be a badge of honor or anything.
That’s not what I meant. I meant that I’d no longer feel stupid for picking someone who has easy shit. Now Sagat has to earn it, I’m willing to play him.
yeah cause sagat just gave you free wins before right
You know, that’s always left me wondering too. Some things really don’t stand out until thorough testing by the masses, but other things seem so obvious that it’d be hard to miss (like whiffing half of Ken or Akuma’s SRKs at a distance, or Vega in general). In most fighting games, ridiculous stuff gets left in, and then in the rebalance, some characters get nerfed to hell, like the devs are overcompensating for the last game on purpose (Sagat). I can understand things being unbalanced in the first game of the system build, but after you’ve established that framework, and have years of empirical data on what works and what doesn’t from the worldwide community at large, is it really that hard to tweak a game so that everybody is decent, and everybody works well?
Closest I’ve seen to it is Guilty Gear XX, and that’s after like 6 versions of the same game.
Yeah, and whats even more ununderstandable is that in SSFIV, the lowtiers got nerfed as wel >_>. I hope that capcom knows what they’re doing, as you’d think from a company that has been producing games for a long time.
Honda, Zangief, Guile, Vega.
Yeah, pretty much.
Sagat’s dp does 100 because of f.Hk, he is the only “shoto” who can add such a powerfull normal in his dp fadc to ultra, also he can still trade into f.hk. Also remember that anger scar stays for all the round, and since sagat can build meter very easily. You just have use your first ex for it and you have a dp of 180 damage stocked. Seriously, I kinda like that idea that he must rely on scar to do massive damage with his dp, it give him more personality (or should I say character?). There is absolutely nothing to cry about him he will still be top 10, probably top 5.
Makes me think of the recent SRK interview with Killian where he mentioned that in early builds of SF4 Rufus was dead last, Boxer also bottom tier and Vega was 2nd best. Then by just changing a few things on each character, they ended up with what we have now. So to improve Rufus they buffed EX Messiah and his juggle options. My question is what was Vega like? Where does claw/mask throw fit in? Were they originally useful tools that the devs thought might be too good, but rather than just remove them, they just made them into the puzzling jokes we know them as?
Same interview I believe, they ask about Guile and why it seems like he hasn’t really gotten the improvements other characters did. Seth’s response is to the effect of “Guile was really good in SF games in the past, so were ok with the fact he sucks now.”
Idk, I just don’t understand putting all this work into characters and then making them so weak that no one uses them. The dev blogs are always saying how they spent time on this or that so it would make them really happy if everyone tried it out and used it! So why entire characters that are purposely bad?