Strong zoning is his strength, it always has been. Thats how you play him, keep those bitches out so they dont get in and make his life hell. Pretty much all characters can escape his Tiger Knee pressure, even Vega if they are on point. Go into training mode and see for yourself. A lot of characters can stop Tiger Knees with even a standing jab alone.
No one saying he didnt need some tweaks in certain areas, but players just arent looking at many of the changes they made to his game objectively.
…and if you think you can play Sagat and “make mistakes” this late in the game at a 64 man tournament within the top 16, you’re kidding yourself. Even one mistake vs a good Boxer or Zangief could mean the match.
I dont think anyone is saying he will be low tier, it’s just the general line of thinking behind whats going on with the development that some of us dont agree with. You want to have some sense of satisfaction and reward for hitting difficult links and combos, and that will slowly go away if everoyne is nerfed to shit, not just Sagat.
Other than new Ultras, like Chun’s, how many characters are getting buffs to make them competitive? I don’t keep up with every character…mostly just the one’s that interest me. So far, all I’m aware of is that Sakura’s MK can finally cross up again and Rose can juggle off of crouch fierce. What else is in the works?
I am. But I got in late. Although I live in socal, I ignored the arcade release. When it came out on console, I played for a couple weeks, decided it felt off, and just focused on HDR until Evo. So, I basically started playing right after Evo and have been playing it steadily since then.
So, I realize that I’m 6~12 months behind most people. But I’ve been playing fighting games for a long time now. I realize it’s a brand new game, but I think I can discern sensible stuff from crap. And to be honest, so much shit feels whack in this game that it boggles my mind. I mean, there’s the obvious shit that most people bitch about. All the top tier have 100 ways to land ultra and all that. But there’s a SHIT TON of more minor things that make this game feel off. For example, in most SF games ever, if you jump straight up over someone’s rush (Blanka ball, Honda headbutt, Rog’s rush, etc) you can come down with HP/HK into combo. But in this game, there is NO HITBOX behind peoples heads, so you end up whiffing your move and get nailed for avoiding and trying to punish their attack. There’s about a bazillion things like that which drive me nuts in this game.
Anyway, SF4 is what it is. I’m not trying to bring my criticism of the overall game into this thread. But, in most of the SF games (SF2, A1, SF3:NG) they realized just how out of whack things were in the first version and drastically overhauled it over subsequent games. In SSF4 it doesn’t seem like they’re doing that at all. Most of the shit seems EXACTLY the same. And, I’m sorry, but it’s plain as fucking day that a few of the characters are WAY easier to deal damage with than others. I WISH they would do a drastic overhaul of all the characters moves. But if they’re not going to do that, then sure, give the top characters a few nerfs. IMO, that’s the least they can do.
FWIW, I completely agree with you on this. I would MUCH RATHER have had them fix dumb shit like Sagat’s half-screen st.HK hitbox than the shit they did. I would also rather they made other people better. I also wish some launches into ultra were gone for some characters and some characters had reasonable launches into ultra become a reality. But they didn’t go that way, which is a crying shame. And hence, I don’t feel much sympathy for Sagat’s nerfs.
I really don’t mean any offense to Sagat. And I’m not really trying to troll this thread. Just trying to add a bit of devlis advocate counter-perspective.
Some of the sagat changes may be questionable, but so are many other characters. If they werent going to make other characters better or ultras comboable they had to do something. Not saying capcom has done it everything right, but I dont think its a step on the bad direction either.
I can see where you’re coming from, I think a lot of us kind of scratch our heads at some (many?) of the gameplay elements in Street Fighter 4, but we continue to play it because it’s where all the competition is. My thing is I just want a larger pool of powerful characters who have a lot of fun and interesting elements in their game. In Super I see that with some characters, but other characters its like they deliberately left out some of that. Like Makoto cant Kara any of her moves like she could in 3s, her post hayate mix up game seems a lot weaker, her “fun” ultra Abare Tosanami seems to take a backseat to Ultra 1 among other things. I feel like not only some of the fun elements of Sagat have been taken out, but they’ve reduced his damage so much that now even his fun stuff isnt even satisfying when you get it to land (read: kara uppercuts and the like.)
One thing I was trying to emphisize in my post to you, is that a lot of the low/mid teir characters actually have a lot of great tools, they just dont get the chance to shine becuase some of the tops like Gief and Sagat are so overwheleming in certian match ups. I was trying to get across that it would only take minor adjustments for people to see that a lot of these characters are good, even without FADC into Ultra, as long as they have a chance to have some fun once they get in. I dont think FADC into Ultra for everyone is the answer for this game, I think that makes things to homogenus and leads to stale gameplay. After looking at gameplay clips and now some of the stats, I jsut feel like maybe not a lot has changed but instead the power is just moving to another set of characters instead.
Honestly, it’s too early to tell to bitch this mutch, but guys, fuck, come on, 100 dmg for an uppercut? ITS AN UPPERCUT! DONT JUMP! Now people will jump and think it’s okay! That’s just not right!
I think maybe they had a plan to make everyone buff but realized it would take forever so just cut back on the obvious stuff until the next upgrade, but who knows. None of us will ever know for sure.
Anyway, a lot of the points im trying to make is why I love watching Tekken 6 so much. Such a diverse cast and it seems like everyone has ridiculous, fun, SATISFYING shit they can do. I would like SF4 to be similar to that where each character has their own unique approach to each fight and can do a buttload of damage in the process. I think it makes for really intese fights at the end of the day, but I still dont think giving everyone “FADC into Ultra” is the answer.
If we met in Japan, I dont remember. Sorry, where did we meet?
Yeah, I dont either think givind every character the chance to rip 40-50% from a reversal or dp type move will be right, but at least if they leave it in a way that some characters can do it and others no they need to tweak those characters a bit (like they tried to do in super)
Were you with ironfist? I was one of the spanish guys (the fat one lol) that you met at night in front of a supermarket. Maybe im wrong, sorry if thats the case
sigh pretty much. Also, to be fair, I don’t know what it is. I don’t know if it’s because it’s new, or if it’s because it feels so different. But my feeling towards SF4 is that I LOVE to HATE it. In other words, I look forward to playing it. I get excited about learning new things, seeing updates for super, etc. And then I play it and get angry at it because so much of it feels jacked. I don’t know what it is, but something draws me into it, yet it enrages me once I get there. I dunno what’s up. But it’s kinda like dating a crazy chick who’s really good in the sack. LOL
I agree. I think that’s where some of my venom comes from. I’ve sampled a few characters and the one I’ve taking a shining to the most is Gouken. Problem is, almost all of his special moves are horribly flawed. Does it sound like any of them are getting fixed in super? Nope! GG Capcom. Way to go! And it’s not just my characters. It sounds like most are going to remain flawed. I agree that it’d be cool if most of the characters were strong, I’d rather have them bring down the top tier if they’re not going to properly buff the low/mid tier.
Yeah, it’s funny. I predict that the new characters will be about as well tested as the current SF4 cast. I suspect some will suck balls while others will end up being the very best in the game. I hope I’m wrong. But I doubt it…
Oh, I know. And I totally agree. It’s also precisely why I’m not shedding any tiers over the top tier’s nerfs. It seems to me like the only upgrades some of the mid/low tiers are getting is that the top tier people can’t rape them quite as hard.
But that’s the thing. Some of them really can’t have fun once they get in. I’m far from an authority, but let me give you an example with my favorite character in SF4, Gouken. If he gets in and gets a knockdown, he’d sure love to pressure characters. But guess what? The two tools he has that seem most suited for this (Counter and Demon Flip + Parry) get broken by reversal moves, since they get auto-armor break. So against any a-hole who mashes out SRK you lose for free! The only pressure at all you can apply is to do a demon flip kick that crosses the opponent up and makes them whiff a SRK. But if they don’t mash SRK they can still easily block or counter your moves once you land on the other side. Yay!
Agreed. Not everyone needs an SRK, or 10 ways to combo into ultra, or a great knockdown game, or wake-up game, etc. That’s always been part of the flavor of SF. Different characters excel at different things. That makes the variety fun.
However, at the same time, it’s obvious the initial design for SF4 failed. It seems that Sagat’s retardedly low walk speed but GREAT anti-airs and fireball game would make him a great zoning character, similar to ST. Fine. But how it slipped by that kara knee and uppercut allow him to rule the screen while armor break knee gives him a crazy pressure game on top of that missed QA, I’ll never know. And IMO, that’s too much shit for one guy. And especially one with a lot of health who does great damage. Akuma is somewhat understandable. He’s got a lot of great stuff, but low health/stun. But Sagat? Dude’s a tank AND great at a lot of things. That’s too much…IMO. Maybe it’d be different if everyone was a beast. But they’re not.
Sadly, I think you’re right. I think Akuma and Ryu will still be very competitive. But some other character(s) will take their place as way too powerful. Let’s hope we’re wrong on that…
sigh Yeah, that get’s back into shit that annoys me with this game. Jumping and wake-up SRKs feel too free to me in this game. Between long startup frames on every move, lower priority, and the ability to FADC to make unsafe shit safe, things feel a bit too nebulous. But, I guess that’s SF4…
Man I feel you on this, but I’m only starting to see this now, because SF4 is (sad I know) my first serious fighting game.
For example, I was at a ranbat this weekend and we randomly decided to have a $1 CVS2 tourney. Now, keep in mind that I have literally never played CVS2 before. EVER. Not a single match.
But I signed up cause I heard the game was fun. My friends told me a few tips: Use C-groove, stick to capcom characters, cammy is awesome.
So I rolled with Ryu, Cammy, Ken, with Cammy on Ratio 2.
My first time playing it ever and I beat a few guys who had been playing it for a while, made it into winner’s bracket, and eventually got knocked out by the guy who took first (who plays it a lot apparently).
But I realized something: In a game where fundamentals matter so much, where meaties work and reversals can’t be mashed out…I did really well. All I did was use footsies and some basic zoning/spacing and I was playing strongly in a game I had never played before.
Then the SF4 tourney started and I got beat (narrowly) by two Gief players doing the same things they always do, that I always struggle with because I play Chun and the 300 health point defecit I start the match with is just too goddamn much. Ugh.
How mutch damage do TU does in SSF4?
Looking at the new video at eventubs, even tigerknee is mutch weaker, all his normals to.
[media=youtube]RIXjxIY15dA&feature=player_embedded[/media]
i understand sagat needed the nerfs he is abit strong but i mean dont suck the fun out of him. i have no idea what capcom were thinking i mean like its one thing to tone down a character but not to the point of saying what is the point of playing this character. for one tk is way over rated, that shit dont work that well anymore in tournaments. nearly everyone has a viable option to get out of it. call me nuts but i think akuma is the no1 character in sf4 most people probably dont know it yet. the way i see him its like hes the almost perfect character, crazy mixup, wikid keepout, sick damage, just lacking in vitatlity.
