get rid of juggling off a TU trade , lower his damage and HP SLIGHTLY
why should he be the only exception on not having a trade from DP?
Even as a Gief player, I recognize that Sagat’s not broken. But while giving him big nerfs would be a mistake, he absolutely does need some small ones.
Imo the most offensive thing about Sagat is toward+short. It’s fast, can be linked out of, hits low, covers 1/3 of the screen, is cancelable up until the very end, and it’s even the most damaging light attack in the game. You know all the tricks you can do with it, and they’re all retarded.
I wouldn’t take it away, though, because it’s one of the few actually new things Sagat’s gotten in a long time. I’d just nerf its range a bit, make it not hit low, and give it a couple more frames of recovery so that it’s still safe on block from max range but can’t be comboed out of.
I feel the same way about toward+rh. It’s faster than most characters’ command normals, does huge damage, juggles, can juggle twice in some situations, hits tall standing characters, etc. Sick move. But I wouldn’t get rid of it, because it’s another one of the few new things Sagat got. Make it do less damage and make either its startup or recovery slightly longer so that it can’t be juggled twice, and I think it’s fine.
Same deal about the overhead. Does Sagat need an overhead? I think he probably doesn’t, especially since you can link out of it in some situations. But when it’s one of the few new things Sagat has, why would you get rid of it? All I would do is make its recovery a few frames longer so that it can’t be comboed out of.
In changing Sagat, you have to take into account the fact that many of his opponent characters will be getting buffed in some way. He doesn’t dominate many matchups and has a few evenish ones, so you have to be very very slight and precise with nerfs to keep him good. I don’t think anything significant like removing an option or cutting his health is required.
where did i say he should be the only one? this is a thread about sagat, so im talking about sagat
i wasn’t nearly as angry as i sounded :).
UltraDavid: SHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!! Hush your mouth. lolololol
Let the noobs complain about the obvious shit but leave the subtle shit that is actually godlike alone plz k thnx lololol.
Over head and low step kick are soooooooooooo good.
That and stand forward. Sagat’s stand forward eats other pokes for dinner.
Yeah man. Good Sagats beat my Gief for reasons that are pretty different from the ones that beat me early on.
Sagat changes imo:
Goals
–Slightly less damaging
–Keep him good
–Maintain his distinctiveness compared to previous versions of Sagat
Changes to normals
–Standing roundhouse’s hitbox is nerfed so that it stays closer to Sagat’s legs (ie still has the same range at his foot, but doesn’t have that giant phantom hitbox in front of his crotch anymore)
–Standing roundhouse deals 50-90 damage instead of 40-110
–Crouching mk has slightly more range
–Jump fierce does 130 damage instead of 140
–Overhead has 2 active frames instead of 5, 17 frames of recovery instead of 16 (-4 or -3 on block, safe on hit but can’t be comboed out of)
–Toward+short does not hit low, only moves 2/3 of current distance, has 2 hitting frames instead of 3, and has 19 frames of recovery instead of 16 (-2 on block from max range, +2 on hit)
–Toward+rh does 120 damage instead of 140 and has 18 frames of recovery instead of 16 (so that juggling it twice in one combo is more difficult)
Changes to specials
–Ex tiger shots do 70-60 damage instead of 80-70
–Punch tigers have 41 frames of recovery instead of 39
–Kick tigers have 45 frames of recovery instead of 44
–Jab uppercut does 130(70) damage instead of 140(80), mp does 140(70) instead of 150(80), hp does 160(70) instead of 170(70), and ex does 100-20x4 instead of 120-20x4
–Regular uppercuts are invincible on frames 1-6, considered off the ground on frame 8 (so you can still fadc out of it and still get grounded trades, you just have to fadc very fast and hit your antiair dp very precisly)
–Short tiger knee has 3+15 frames of recovery instead of 3+13 (still safe from max range, just not as much)
–Ex tiger knee has 3+15 frames of recovery instead of 3+13 (still safe from max range, just not as much)
–Full ultra does 35x7-45x6 damage (515 total) instead of 45x7-45x6 (585 total)
Game-wide change
–The launch associated with a launching move is no longer as high, keeping uppercut fadc ultra possible but requiring tighter timing
That sounds like a lot, but it’s really not. It’s a very slight damage nerf on a few of his most damaging moves, usually less than a 10% reduction, and a significant damage reduction only on his ultra. Fierce uppercut fadc toward+rh ultra will still be possible and one of the most damaging combos in the game. It’s also a slight damage nerf in that some pretty unnecessary combos will become harder or impossible. It’s also a slight nerf of how much space he can control with his kara cancels, which I don’t think anyone can complain about, and an extremely slight nerf to his fireball game. Sagat has and should have great space control, but he doesn’t need to threaten a half life combo from 1/2 screen and he doesn’t need projectiles that move and recover so fast that most projectile characters’ projectiles are useless against him. Again, none of this is a big deal. Sagat will still be very damaging and mobile and will still control space well, he’ll just be very mildly worse at all of that.
At the same time, I’d make his footsies sliiiightly better by giving him more range on cr. mk, and giving his uppercuts 1 invincible frame will make it possible to hit without taking damage, which in some sense balances the fact that trading uppercut into big damage will be harder to pull off.
For a lot of reasons. So what if his is the only one removed (though I wan’t Ryu’s to be removed also)? Not every advantages and disadvantages in the game are shared among all characters. “Big picture.”
[media=youtube]ge6C58a7Eu4#t=1m13s[/media]
^ near the top middle, you’ll see a video of ryu doing his ultra, then shortly after as the video gets smaller, you’ll see sagat Tiger Up. FADC into something that looks like a red fireball ultra?
I think he should be able to camp well have really solid anti air easy ultra combos deal a lot of damage and have lot of health then were golden.
…wait.
i see wat u did there…
no, you just see him FADC into the beginning of his ultra…
that’s what i thought too…
Sagat should have a random chance to trip and fall when he FADCs because he has no depth perception
also smash brothers
But he has the Eye of the Tiger.
Eye of the Tiger.
LOL
seriously, I can’t believe someone was actually stupid enough to open a thread asking for BUFFS to sagat. Ok, they might not nerf him bad (he doesn’t really need it), but making him better? Are you fucking joking?
I feel like the last guy to chime in with some worthless Sagat nerf suggestions. Here goes…
Get rid of trade TU to Ultra (yes for Ryu too)
f+HK juggle properties need addressing obviously
Ultra damage down a touch
Few more frames on all tiger shots, maybe.
LK knee always unsafe (boo!). It just gives him too many options and free momentum. Sagat owns the far zones and a safe knee just extends that advantage closer to him. It just doesn’t fit the usual attack formular of balancing speed/damage with punishability and while these moves should exist, they shouldn’t be given to characters who have a pretty much loaded toolkit already.
so you re basically saying sagat should go from top to bottom tier? Your first 2 suggestions make some sense, the others are bs
Those changes would NOT make him bottom tier by any stretch of the imagination.
Not even close.
Not that I advocate nerfing him, but if speedsix’s changes were implemented as he described them, Sagat would still be top tier.
This is obviously just my opinion but Sagat’s ‘zone’ is just too damn big, he owns a good 4/5ths of the playing field against most characters and isn’t horrible in the other bit. The concept of zoning goes out the window, is he far? Good. Is he mid range? Excellent. Is he right on my face? Oh well, could be worse.
I can’t see how walk speed has much relevance to a character like Sagat, there’s little need to reposition yourself in relation to your opponent when he probably has nowhere better to go anyway. I will say that the walk speed does have a much greater effect at higher levels when footsies become more dominant though.
There’s so much guesswork in SF and guessing wrong against Sagat is too extreme also. Guessing wrong should punish you but it shouldn’t be so drastic.
Just my two pennies.