Hmm, interesting but his options are still pretty limited. And if ssf4 is anything like sf4, a blocked j.lk cross up can be countered with a srk before Sagat lands. But you obviously know more about Sagat than me since I didn’t even consider safe jump OS TU.
Agreed 100%. I like SSF4 Sagat so far (and that is coming from a Honda player). Watching Aliounes vids, scratches the surface of AS, but you are right, it gives you the potential to be SF4 Sagat…for bar. None of those combos on the videos do any more damage than SF4 Sagat did, but they will be trickier to do that’s all and you wont be able to casue that sort of damage every combo - once a round proabably. The hit confirmed sweep though is a good buff for him, but he needs to be on the offensive to do it, which opens him up to counters and reversals. Trade Ultra was his most broken tool and I’ll say it again, but anything that trades in this game, should not allow any character to then have 400-500 more free damage…period. Hopefully everything resets as it should or you can only follow up once with one normal or special.
S.lk cancel is still in. Its just he can only cancel on the first hit. Which even then the first hit has surprisingly solid range. Upper trade to ultra is still in but it only works on bad junp ins now and not every jump in like vanilla. Now the opponent has to press an attack high in the air for u to get the ultra if you’re using ultra 1. If they do a deep jump in all u get is f+hk. Unless u activate angry scar after the trade which allows uppercut to juggle after f+hk. Which basically allows u to get more damage without an ultra than u could in vanilla.
j.lk cross is very very good in Sagat mirrors and vs. Ken since their SRKs are slower than Akuma and Ryu’s as well as not having the same retarded priority. I would never dream of jumping cross on Ryu or Akuma, and they can’t even be safe-jumped thanks to 3 frame SRK, but maybe they changed the start-up on that.
Yeah but what your forgetting Tamana is that ALL damage has been nerfed in SSf4 , its a different game , Trade ultra was really not a huge deal , It is also STILL in the game ,just slightly trickier . But still for everytime I get a trade into ultra i could of just gotten raw ultra instead. Jumping is still not an option trade or no trade. Stlk cancability is still in the game aswell. just less range.
The 1 bar usage is seriously no big deal , Sagat has no problems with biulding meter , hell I used to waste an ex bar when I had super just so i wouldnt get super by accident when im doing st.lk cancel into tiger knee.
No character in SSF4 can be compared to SF4 , its a completely different game , saying he wont be like SF4 sagat is a given , but I think he will be the king of SSF4.
He doesn’t have to be SF4’s Sagat to still be the best character in the game.
Why are some people acting like Sagat is the only character who got nerfed?
Also consider that Sagat got nerfed in some areas, while given tools to compensate. Can you say the same for Ryu? Rufus? Akuma?
Don’t know why spending meter is such a big deal for you, is not like Sagat relied on it. Sagat only needed meter for 2 things, EX-TS and FADC, thats it. Now, he has the option to spend meter to increase his combos, and powerful combos at that. Don’t sleep on AS, you’ll be surprised what its capable of.
The point wasn’t to nerf Sagat into not being the best character. It was to nerf him so he wasn’t the best character by a longshot. Okada even said he’s probably still #1 or #2. They are aware he’s still good. It’s not like they are completely oblivious to the changes they’ve made.
As for stand LK cancel, yes… we know you can cancel the first hit. When “Sagat stand LK cancel” is mentioned, it’s in reference to the far hit (one of the tools that made him so ridiculous as O.Sagat in ST).
Then again, you knew that when bringing it up.
… and yes, we also know that the super high trade/ultra still works… but playing semantics to “win” an argument is a waste of everyone’s time. You know exactly what “lk cancel” means, and you know what the trade/ultra is referencing. If you don’t, then you aren’t even qualified to be posting in this discussion.
The fact still remains, Sagat lost 2 of his major tools that made him a god in SF4 (one via engine tweak, one via character tuning). Then, to make up for such a gigantic loss, they gave him a new move. The things they changed were what made him a god in the first place, and without them, his effectiveness would be drastically reduced.
Then explain this to me… why would they remove both of those things? If he was a powerhouse without them… and having them didn’t have a drastic effect on his strength vs the rest of the entire case… why change it?
You sound like you don’t understand game balance at all. There is a REASON they nerfed lk cancel. They didn’t do it on accident. Do you think it is a coincidence that the two things we are talking about were removed (in their SF4 form, for people that simply want to argue semantics)? You don’t just pick a random element from a character and nerf it because the character is too good… you look at what makes them too good, and you tweak it. Sometimes it’s a damage change, sometimes it’s a cancel change (removal in this case), and in cases where such a minor change completely tweaks the effectiveness of the character (you know, like removing one of Sagat’s only real footsie moves), then you have to make up for it in some other way. This is, of course, assuming you want the character to still remain effective at a similar level.
I think you took the wrong idea in my comments. Numerous comments (here and on iplaywinner) were crying about how much BETTER SSF4 Sagat is over SF4 Sagat because of Angry Scar. These are mostly people that wanted/expected him to get nerfed to the ground. Seeing him get anything, in their eyes, is as if they are simply just making him better, without fully realizing the impact of the two major changes to his style.
I never said they would be looking for CH HK to Ultra. I was pointing out that the ability to do that does NOT make up for what he has lost. You really need to understand the text before you reply to it. In addition, the developers specifically nerfed the damage output of Sagat himself.
“This time around, we wanted to retain what he could do, so we went with reducing his damage output. Using the moves and combos he often utilized as a reference, we adjusted his attack power…” - Okada
Follow along here:
… reducing… his… damage… output
- … adjusted… his… attack… power.*
Not… “because everyone in the game does less damage now we felt Sagat was more balanced”.
Oh, you told me!
I said he probably wouldn’t be in the top 10, and DEFINITELY wouldn’t be in the top 5. Don’t misrepresent what I said to suit your argument. If you are going to try to use my words against me, make sure you quote it properly. You obviously have no idea how much LK cancel changes the game against a TON of other cast members that are not the top 3 or 4 (besides other Sagats). The developers know… and we all know it when we play O.Sagat in ST. LK has proven to be a ruthless tool time and time again.
Don’t even begin to assume you know how much I know. I can lay out clear and obvious talking points, whereas all you’ve done is say “because I don’t agree with you, that shows me how much you know”. Yeah, that doesn’t work.
It’s the wrong answer to you, but it’s obviously the right answer the the people making the game. Apparently they really don’t care that you think he was “a powerhouse” with LK cancel and the SF4 trade/ultra mechanic. It’s not like they removed them… and then realized, “maybe we should give him something to make up for that loss”… oh wait.
Again, they SPECIFICALLY point out that they tweaked Sagat’s attack power and damage output. SPECIFICALLY.
Trade/ultra not really a huge deal? With Sagat? The king of being knocked out of his uppercut… and then still getting a 50%+ damage combo… for no EX meter? Clearly not big enough to remove (in its SF4 version).
Well, let’s see how fast he builds meter when he can no longer far LK -> TK, or far LK to -> FB. Hrm… interesting, seems like it may actually be a bit harder? Does that sound like a reduced effectiveness? So wait… combine that with the fact that he now needs to use additional meter to attain similar damage #'s from SF4 original… and… wait for it… he’s going to actually get meter-starved more often? Sounds like a nerf. Maybe you should think about all of the repercussions of a tweak/nerf. Just taking away far LK cancel is more than just a surface change. It impacts the way Sagat will be played.
No one is really debating that.
As Smileymike101 said: “He doesn’t have to be SF4’s Sagat to still be the best character in the game.”
Fair enough but I still do not agree. I read your post from beginning to end , you still sound like someone who theory fights more then he has played the game (sf4). Again we shall see when the new game is released. Though some of the things mentioned are just emphasised to seem like your talking sence when your really not. Dont underestimate how much I know just because I dont have a red user name and im not a premium member. Im not turning this into an essay contest so I shall leave it here.
Few points before I leave though
First of all Sagat was never a “God” in Sf4 to begin with.
1 ) “I think your completely wrong , Sagat in SF4 was a powerhouse without trade to ultra and standing lk cancel. You sound like you dont main Sagat.
Then explain this to me… why would they remove both of those things? If he was a powerhouse without them… and having them didn’t have a drastic effect on his strength vs the rest of the entire case… why change it?”
**
You sound like you don’t understand game balance at all. There is a REASON they nerfed lk cancel. They didn’t do it on accident. Do you think it is a coincidence that the two things we are talking about were removed (in their SF4 form, for people that simply want to argue semantics)? You don’t just pick a random element from a character and nerf it because the character is too good… you look at what makes them too good, and you tweak it. Sometimes it’s a damage change, sometimes it’s a cancel change (removal in this case), and in cases where such a minor change completely tweaks the effectiveness of the character (you know, like removing one of Sagat’s only real footsie moves), then you have to make up for it in some other way. This is, of course, assuming you want the character to still remain effective at a similar level.**
This is about as patronising as you can get . A whole sentance to prove what exactly? that they nerfed his st.lk and trade to make him worse? I already knew that.What I said to you was these 2 things are NOT the things which made him a powerhouse. They nerfed everything on sagat , health , damage on tiger knees and tiger uppercut , st.lk cancability , harder trade. I could spend a paragraph arguing how tiger knee and t/u damage made him broke and thats the reason they nerfed him… but its not.
- **Oh, you told me!
I said he probably wouldn’t be in the top 10, and DEFINITELY wouldn’t be in the top 5. Don’t misrepresent what I said to suit your argument. If you are going to try to use my words against me, make sure you quote it properly. You obviously have no idea how much LK cancel changes the game against a TON of other cast members that are not the top 3 or 4 (besides other Sagats). The developers know… and we all know it when we play O.Sagat in ST. LK has proven to be a ruthless tool time and time again.
Don’t even begin to assume you know how much I know. I can lay out clear and obvious talking points, whereas all you’ve done is say “because I don’t agree with you, that shows me how much you know”. Yeah, that doesn’t work.
**
So without trade ultra and st.lk cancability he definately wouldnt be top 5. But you again are making no sence since these 2 things are still in the game?? And again I dont agree, st.lp cancel tiger knee, cr.mp cancel tiger knee. Easy alternatives , st.lk is not the end all . Also I think I know more about Sf4 sagat then you TBH.
- It’s the wrong answer to you, but it’s obviously the right answer the the people making the game. Apparently they really don’t care that you think he was “a powerhouse” with LK cancel and the SF4 trade/ultra mechanic. It’s not like they removed them… and then realized, “maybe we should give him something to make up for that loss”… oh wait.
Yeah because capcom are the masters of game balance and rose’s backdash and gens jump arc where broken and have been removed , and have also been replaced with… oh WAIT.
- **Again, they SPECIFICALLY point out that they tweaked Sagat’s attack power and damage output. SPECIFICALLY.
Trade/ultra not really a huge deal? With Sagat? The king of being knocked out of his uppercut… and then still getting a 50%+ damage combo… for no EX meter? Clearly not big enough to remove (in its SF4 version).**
Again you dont understand that the trade has NOT been removed, and jumping at that arc you can be anti air ultra’d for the same damage now. Except ALL damage in SSf4 has been nerfed so no more 500 + damage off ANYTHING.
- Well, let’s see how fast he builds meter when he can no longer far LK -> TK, or far LK to -> FB. Hrm… interesting, seems like it may actually be a bit harder? Does that sound like a reduced effectiveness? So wait… combine that with the fact that he now needs to use additional meter to attain similar damage #'s from SF4 original… and… wait for it… he’s going to actually get meter-starved more often? Sounds like a nerf. Maybe you should think about all of the repercussions of a tweak/nerf. Just taking away far LK cancel is more than just a surface change. It impacts the way Sagat will be played.
This sentance proved to me that you do not use Sagat in SF4. Again , cr.mp TK, st.lp TK . Alot more to build meter , again st.lk WAS NOT the end all of cancability into TK .Also Sagat built meter the most by zoning and throwing fireballs , where you get this Idea that he’s going to be meter starved without st.lk is beyond me .
Do not underestimate peoples opinions and ability just because there not in your position. I will get a hands on with the game tomorow and post my thoughts etc. Again, i do not agree with what your saying and even a mammoth essay of pure patronising comments wont change my mind.
trag,
you didnt mention what someone had pointed out and thats that sagat can now do F+HK followed by an AS TU after a trade in place of ultra now.
sure it does less damage, but argue-ably it can be done way more often than the ultra in one round, and i would say that is a huge huge tool that was completely added to him.
he lost far lk cancel, but he gained close HK cancel, which is a huge hit confirm/ has crazy damage potential coupled with AS. How much damage did you get from conceling far LK? one tiger knee if it hit? it was really more for pestering your opponent and forcing them to block stupid frametraps-
he can now do jump in hk>st. hk xx AS , st. hk TU. thats going to be HUGE damage for a single ex meter off of a jump in. probably way more than he could do in SF4 off of a one meter jump in. thats a solid and consistent (as it could happen several times a round unlike trade>ultra) damage increase.
he lost some stupid shit, and you can cry about it, but i think his additions COULD VERY EASILY be better than his losses in all honesty. ESPECIALLY if you think about him in the context of the new versions of the rest of the characters. SS4 sagat in a game with the SSF4 cast could very easily = S4 sagat in a game with S4 cast. if you are REALLY arguing for S4 sagat in a game with SS4 cast, then you are just stupid.
he is now not just an OBVIOUS plateued place above everyone else, but his potential has been greatly expanded, and although it might take longer to be realized, he could end up being just as high over the rest of the cast, maybe, MAYBE even higher in the new SSF4 context. its possible, the game isnt out, we dont know yet.
if you are going to just say “blah blah blah but thats not my arguement, hes still not as good as sf4 sagat is all i’m saying blah blah” well in terms of having retarded dumb setups, then no shit hes not, but thats not in context to the respective game hes in, and a worthless thing to argue about.
To all the people complaining about this video, or saying that sagat still is overpowered, etc.
I been playing and testing SSFIV, I’m a sagat player since SFIV was relased I know everything about Sagat.
Capcom did ok with Sagat nerfs, believe me, basicly they gave sagat less stamina, they took off the comeback potential the bnb dmg, and basicly all moves nerf, u will see tiger knee dmg now is ridiculous, also u cant spam tiger knee strings like before…
Angry Scar and those videos are really cool, good Sagat player will accept that, but keep in mind that all standard Sagat users that dont even know how to play him property, that based his game on comeback potential, bnb, and knee strings with no sense, all this kind of people will miserably fail with Sagat in SSFIV.
From what I see on this post there are a lot of players like that…
There is only few Sagat users in EU, US that can do kara uppers in reaction, punish 3/4 fb with hp kara upper and knows how to zone kara high/low ts and how to use footsies property.
So not every 1 will handle cancelling hk into scar, I remember to every1 that scar is performed with 2x QCB + any punch, good luck to all sagat users mastering scar stuff.
Regarding hk+scar+ultra hk must be on counter hit, and must be canceled on the first frame, u can go for anti tech setups like: jump hk(block), cr.lk (block), delay, hk in to scar, and confirm with that GL with that guys 
nerfed trade > ultrra for easy wins from scrubs
neared lk cancel for advanced sagats
sfiv > ssfiv changes = no more lucky wins for scrubs vs advanced players
sagat will be weak on scrubs, but will be strong for advanced players
Thank you for talking sense Ricky… I wont list them, but in Europe I could count the players on one hand who will truely use AS to the max, mixing them into kara combos and other tricky setups - and these comments from someone who has been playing the game too. At one point SSF4 Sagat is rubbish becasue he lost his powerful tools, now he is better for the masses becasue of Angry Scar (which everyone thought was crap), when it seems the heart of the debate is he is potentially better and more powerful than SF4 …to advanced to top level players!
Europe: Alioune, Me, Ryan H. (dont know yet)
US: Sanford, havent seen any other deep/top sagat there…, havent seen any recent haunts vid or floe…
The rest of players will change main believe me
The ability to special cancel his st.hk is nice and all but people aren’t mentioning that st.hk whiffs on the majority of the cast when they’re crouching. Cr.lk x2, st.hk, AS into whatever is a nice combo and all but st.hk will whiff on some characters in crouch (for example vs. Ryu the combo whiffs but works vs. Guile). Maybe after a successful jump in attack the st.hk xx AS combo would serve well but as a ground combo starting from cr.lk it’s likely a poor choice considering how st.hk whiffs on most crouching characters.
Also based on Alioune’s previous posts and his recent video that f+hk > AS > TU doesn’t work. Rather Sagat already needs to have charged up AS beforehand, so it’s actually AS>f+hk>(kara?) TU. Basically this means the level of usefulness is not quite what it could have been when you consider how Sagat has to have AS stored as a prior condition vs. being able to followup with it after a successful hit on f+hk. (I’m just mentioning this since someone brought up f+hk>AS>TU being possible, but really based on current evidence this doesn’t seem possible.)
Probably the most useful, and what will likely occur most often in matches would be trade TU > AS > TU since the only condition necessary for this is a trade TU (which naturally happens often enough in real matches) and having at least one stock of meter. Thus far most of Sagat’s new stuff seem to almost all require certain conditions to already be in place for it to be possible, such as the st.hk combos (the condition being some characters cannot be in crouch) or AS being already stored as in the case of the TU followup from a f+hk, or st.hk > AS > Ultra (the condition being that st.hk hits as a counter).
trade TU > AS > Kara TU only works trading and catching opponent top in the air and also close to wall 
I see. Thanks for clarifying Ricky.
trade ultra 1 only off shallow jump-ins = good, scrubs will still get punished hard for jumping in, better players eat clean uppercuts more often
AA upper does SF4 damage? I like it, promotes smarter play
less damage off tiger upper FADC ultra in general means you don’t have to worry about dying off 1 mistake vs. sagat, which means more offensive play on both ends, which is good
angry scar gives him some cool setups, but he’s gotta use meter to get kinda-close-to-SF4 damage
so yeah, I like this sagat stuff. his damage output is nerfed a little and he’s more of a technical character. meaning, he’s still really strong, but bad players won’t be able to get away with relying on huge damage off basic shit, and good players will have to work slightly harder and use more meter to win. sounds fine to me. I didn’t want sagat to end up boring, just less stupid.
lol…