Safe meaties

[Professor_Jones]

Some of you might already know about this but since I don’t see this tool used very often outside Japan, I thought I’d make a post on the subject.

There are two types of safe meaties :

-The ones where you use the invincible part of the move to do the meaty, making sure that the vulnerable part of your character is out of reach from any reversal your opponent can do (for example, Hawk’s far standing lp, Boxer’s crouching mp, Dhalsim’s close crouching lp…)

-The ones that have a very quick recovery (or none), thus allowing you to block the reversal in time.

This post is about the second type of safe meaties. These will of course not work against reversals that come out instantly (special throws, ken’s fierce dp), and will be harder or impossible to do against moves that come out very fast (ken’s lp and mp dp, chun li’s hk up kicks…).

Here is a video example (5:25) :
[media=youtube]Iw4e-RVJPfU[/media]
On the third tick, ARG tries to do a flip kick against babynine’s meaty close lp, but since it only has 1 frame of recovery and the flip kicks takes 5 frames to come out, Honda has plenty of time to block and is close enough to punish with an ooicho.

Here are the moves that can be used in this fashion (number of recovery frames in brackets) :

Honda : close stand lp (1 frame), close mp (2 frames)
Blanka : close mp (2 frames)
Zangief : far lk (0 frame), crouch lp (0 frame)
Dee Jay : close lp (1 frame), close mp (1 frame), close mk (1 frame), crouching lp (1 frame)
Dictator : close lk (0 frame)

Depending on the character you’re playing against and the situation, these might not always be the better option, but it’s definitely a strong asset to have up your sleeve.

[papasi]

boxer’s cr mk will work for the entire cast (except reversal spd but i’ll leave that out of this discussion right now)

however there are also match up specific type 1 safe meaties.

for example (as many of us that spectate hydlide’s game on ggpo) since chun’s reversal up kick hit box is so bad, as sim, at the correct distance you can do st back rh and it will stuff everything that she tries to throw out.

it’s a great bait if the chun player has never seen that before. but even if she does, sometimes its still very tempting to press a button because sim is so close and looks vulnerable.

you learn a few of these by watching high level plays but our wiki is still lacking a lot of these knowledge. that’s why afro legends is better than everyone else. he knows a lot of these in his head.

[Born2SPD]

This is very important with Zangief and once you learn it a lot of matches will be easier.
By the way, are you sure that these moves have that exact recovery times?? Im pretty much sure that Honda’s close Jab has 3f recovery, his close Strong has 5f recovery, Blanka’s close strong has 3f recovery and Dic’s close Short has 1f of recovery, not sure about DJ’s cuz i didnt gathered his frame data yet. If you check the hitboxes (which are all on the wiki) you will understand why, even though the character sprite doesn’t change, his active hitbox is gone which means he cant hit. Also, both Blanka and Honda have one last recovery frame which looks like his neutral stance but he didn’t recovered yet. With such recovery times i think these safe meaties are a bit unpractical (Honda’s close Jab is still usable against Claw but imo a little hard to time) unless you’re facing Boxer for example.
http://wiki.shoryuken.com/M.Bison(ST)#Ground_Normals
http://wiki.shoryuken.com/Blanka_(ST)#Ground_Normals
http://wiki.shoryuken.com/E.Honda(ST)#Ground_Normals
Nice topic btw

[oldschool_BR]

for example (as many of us that spectate hydlide’s game on ggpo) since chun’s reversal up kick hit box is so bad, as sim, at the correct distance you can do st back rh but it will stuff everything that she tries to throw out.

it’s a great bait if the chun player has never seen that before. but even if she does, sometimes its still very tempting to press a button because sim is so close and looks vulnerable.

Gian and Hakase use it. They often favor this setup, in the corner:
[LIST=1]
[]meaty Yoga Flame or Jab Yoga Fire;
[]walk up throw or close RH.
[/LIST]
I agree with B2SPD: great idea, Professor Jones!

Edit: perhaps those kara-cancels of mine into SRK are interesting to some. Or the double-tap cr.Jab against Dee Jay.

[Ganelon]

There’s also a 3rd type of safe meaty: kara cancel the active frames of a meaty normal that comes out fast but recovers slowly and doesn’t have great hitboxes. The special move to kara into needs to either beat out or avoid the waking character’s potential reversal.

A straightforward example is claw’s c.LP/MP meaty timed to hit at the very last frame kara cancelled into backflip. If the opponent blocks, then c.LP/MP connects. If the opponent reversals, then the backflip activates.

This particular example is probably too risky (2/1 frame respectively with only 1 chance to backflip) but I’m sure folks can think of possibilities with their own characters. I believe oldschool_BR posted a comprehensive list awhile ago of this type of safe meaties.

[Fudd]

Whether or not Dee Jay’s cl. st. jab has only 1 frame of recovery, I don’t see the point of using up one’s concentration to time a safe meaty that will whiff on ducking characters. Safe meaties are definitely worth discussing, though.

[Professor_Jones]

Fudd : Some of the moves listed are not particularly useful, I just mentioned them for the sake of being exhaustive.

Born2spd : I used the frame data from this site http://www.golden-songs.com/ssf2st/compare.html. Some of the data is different in the yoga book, I don’t know which one is right.

There are many “type one” safe meaties. Any move (preferably crouching) with a long or big red hit box can be used for that purpose. The beauty of these moves is that they can also be used in a safe way in non reversal situations (if spaced and timed right).

Here’s the useful ones that I know of :

Ryu, Ken : crouching mp
Honda : far staning lp (Shougatsu loves that one)
Boxer : crouching mp and mk
Chunli : crouching lk
Dhalsim : close crouching lp, close hk

[DNGR_S_PAPERCUT]

Deejay’s cr jab has no recovery, thats why he is the only character that can link 2x cr jab into special move and still combo without doing renda cancels.

Vs rog, I’m pretty sure the entire cast can do some kind of safe meaty because his head butt has such a long startup.

[Professor_Jones]

Deejay’s cr jab has no recovery, thats why he is the only character that can link 2x cr jab into special move and still combo without doing renda cancels.

Vs rog, I’m pretty sure the entire cast can do some kind of safe meaty because his head butt has such a long startup.

I remember there was a debate somewhere about whether cr. lp x n into jack knife was a cancel or a link. It definitely is a link.

What you said for rog is also true for dee jay, but for different reasons : his upkicks can’t hit crouching opponents and the machine gun only has upper body invincibility on startup. Any low crouching meaty should be safe against him.

[Wolmar]

Playing Honda against Claw, when I have an opportunity in the corner to go for Ochio loop, I always use cr. lk as a tick instead of cr. lp. The move seems to come out a bit faster (which is usefull, as Claw gets up real quick), and the recovery of it, though a bit slower this time, makes Claw’s Flip kick whiff, if spaced right. I guess it has to deal with Honda’s hurtboxes.

[LEFT]

http://golden-songs.com/ssf2st/st/ehonda/crouch-lk/1_cr.jpg

[/LEFT]
[LEFT]

http://golden-songs.com/ssf2st/st/ehonda/crouch-lp/2_cr.jpg

[/LEFT]

[Fudd]

I remember there was a debate somewhere about whether cr. lp x n into jack knife was a cancel or a link. It definitely is a link.

What you said for rog is also true for dee jay, but for different reasons : his upkicks can’t hit crouching opponents and the machine gun only has upper body invincibility on startup. Any low crouching meaty should be safe against him.

You’d have to time that crouching meaty so as to bait out a dread kick or super, then.

[Professor_Jones]

Playing Honda against Claw, when I have an opportunity in the corner to go for Ochio loop, I always use cr. lk as a tick instead of cr. lp. The move seems to come out a bit faster (which is usefull, as Claw gets up real quick), and the recovery of it, though a bit slower this time, makes Claw’s Flip kick whiff, if spaced right. I guess it has to deal with Honda’s hurtboxes.

If you did cr lk and the flip kick whiffed that means that either you were too far to land an ooicho tick in the first place or that you did cr lk too early and it wouldn’t have hit claw even if he just stood there. There’s absolutely no reason to use anything other than close lp to tick claw on wake up, no other move honda has offer the same advantages.

You’d have to time that crouching meaty so as to bait out a dread kick or super, then.

That’s pretty much a non issue since these two moves take ages to come out. Your meaty will be safe no matter what dee jay does.

[oldschool_BR]

I remember there was a debate somewhere about whether cr. lp x n into jack knife was a cancel or a link. It definitely is a link.

Yeah. The misinformation is probably my fault. Sorry.

Let us assume we will not stand up or crouch. We are talking about chain (a.k.a. rapid fire) attacks while standing, all the time; or crouching. The situation is as follows:
[LIST=1]
[]You can only chancel chain attacks into specials directly if it is the first one;
[]Dee Jay’s crouching Jab does have a recovery (I was wrong in some message, please link it to me in case you find it);
[]I assume we all know that we can cancel any chain attack into a special if we use renda-canceling;
[]The recovery of Dee Jay’s crouching Jab is really short. You can combo crouching Jabs by canceling or just by linking.
[/LIST]
Thus, you can combo Dee Jay’s cr.Jab into specials almost any way you want. You can just link them, delay a cr.Jab (link it, don’t cancel) and cancel it as one normally would, or renda-cancel it.

In a nutshell, D S PAPERCUT is always wrong, even if he repeats stuff I say. Whenever that happens, I will be wrong, immediately! I’m sorry, DSP!

[Wolmar]

If you did cr lk and the flip kick whiffed that means that either you were too far to land an ooicho tick in the first place or that you did cr lk too early and it wouldn’t have hit claw even if he just stood there. There’s absolutely no reason to use anything other than close lp to tick claw on wake up, no other move honda has offer the same advantages.

My point is it whiffs if Claw flips. It hits if he does not. The frame data seems to show the cr. lp has a wider hurtbox than the cr. lk version, the flip can then whiff, but the cr lk can still touch (almost same hitbox range than cr lp).
I may be wrong though, even if I still feel cr.lk being a bit faster to come out, is good reason enough to tick with that move considering how fast Claw gets up (still in that particular ochio loop corner situation).

[Professor_Jones]

My point is it whiffs if Claw flips. It hits if he does not. The frame data seems to show the cr. lp has a wider hurtbox than the cr. lk version, the flip can then whiff, but the cr lk can still touch (almost same hitbox range than cr lp).
I may be wrong though, even if I still feel cr.lk being a bit faster to come out, is good reason enough to tick with that move considering how fast Claw gets up (still in that particular ochio loop corner situation).

I don’t know if you read the original post and saw the video example, but I’m talking about standing close lp, not crouching. I could go on a demonstration about hit boxes and frames but I’ll keep it simple : standing close lp gives you a guaranteed ooicho nage whether claw blocks or does a flip kick, and no other move honda has can do this.

[DNGR_S_PAPERCUT]

…In a nutshell, D S PAPERCUT is always wrong, even if he repeats stuff I say. Whenever that happens, I will be wrong, immediately! I’m sorry, DSP!

he mad

Papercut: The score is like 30 - 1, you going to win soon?
oldschool: only 1? you sure I didn’t win more then that?
Papercut: yeah, I’ve been trying to change characters for the past 20 mins.
oldschool: …

[Wolmar]

I don’t know if you read the original post and saw the video example, but I’m talking about standing close lp, not crouching. I could go on a demonstration about hit boxes and frames but I’ll keep it simple : standing close lp gives you a guaranteed ooicho nage whether claw blocks or does a flip kick, and no other move honda has can do this.

Yup, I thought you were talking about cr lp version in your last post. As for standing, this is obvious it is the best move to tick with (frame data and hitbox wise), and indeed, i did not see the first post, just putting my 2 cents about a safe meaty situation in that thread.
Still wonder why kusumondo uses cr lp to perform his ticks to ochio, as far as I saw him playing in that situation.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUSCemzGjXM#t=61s

[oldschool_BR]

snip

That log has a few… inaccuracies, LOL!

[eltrouble]

Yup, I thought you were talking about cr lp version in your last post. As for standing, this is obvious it is the best move to tick with (frame data and hitbox wise), and indeed, i did not see the first post, just putting my 2 cents about a safe meaty situation in that thread.
Still wonder why kusumondo uses cr lp to perform his ticks to ochio, as far as I saw him playing in that situation.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUSCemzGjXM#t=61s

I think it’s because it’s easier to time the meaty cr.jab than the st.jab. cr.jab has more active frames than st.jab, so it’s more reliable as a meaty attack in terms of hitting it consistently on your opponent’s wake-up.

But now that st.jab seems to be the smarter choice, I guess I’m going to have to train Millertime how to use properly against Claw.

[ultracombo]

There’s also a 3rd type of safe meaty: kara cancel the active frames of a meaty normal that comes out fast but recovers slowly and doesn’t have great hitboxes. The special move to kara into needs to either beat out or avoid the waking character’s potential reversal.

A straightforward example is claw’s c.LP/MP meaty timed to hit at the very last frame kara cancelled into backflip. If the opponent blocks, then c.LP/MP connects. If the opponent reversals, then the backflip activates.

This particular example is probably too risky (2/1 frame respectively with only 1 chance to backflip) but I’m sure folks can think of possibilities with their own characters. I believe oldschool_BR posted a comprehensive list awhile ago of this type of safe meaties.

oh it’s another input during hit/blockstun OS… that’s cool. Would it be possible with supers? Some characters have the easy QCF, D, DF super motion, I think it could be possible with them. I’m only wondering because sagat’s TU loses to most reversals but his super would beat them out, plus some of his normals have a lot of active frames. It would be ideal with cr.lk/mk, I think.