Discussion about range of cr.mp made me curious, especially now that we have Dantarion’s shockingly cool web app/data mine thing. ( http://watissf.dantarion.com/ )
Here are the max ranges of Ryu’s key mid-range normals:
b.hk - 1.840 (second hit)
cr.hk - 1.771
st.hk - 1.697 (standing only)
f.hp - 1.434
st.mk - 1.416
st.hp - 1.296
st.lk - 1.290
cr.mk - 1.270
cr.mp - 1.200
st.mp - 1.150
Surprised that axe kick is technically his longest ranged normal.
To understand it better. It’s important to understand how the game handels block or hit stun.
Heres a quick and very simple run down of frame data.
Framedata:
Startup: how many frames your move animates on screen before it will enter its active state, in this periode your move has a hurtbox (you can be hit) but no hitbox (you cant hurt your oponent)
Active frames: how many frames your move can hit an oponent, in this periode your move has both a hit & hurtbox.
Recovery frames: how many frames it takes your move to animate from its “active periode” back to a neutral state. In this periode your move has a hurtbox but no hitbox.
Blockstun & Hitstun: how many frames you are in a block or stun animation until your character is back to neutral and can act.
Thats the basic bare bone run down of framedata.
But meatys is us the players taking advantage of how the game calculates blockstun & hitstun.
The game will do this:
X move has these stats (5 active frames, 5 recovery frames, 9 blockstun frames)
Ryu hits his enemy with move X on its first active frame
Ryu needs to go through 4 aditional active frames and 5 recovery frames for a combined 9 frames before he can act.
His enemy has to go through 9 blockstun frames before he can act.
Because they both go to a neutral state on the same frame Move X is 0 on block.
But if Ryu hits his enemy on move Xs 5th active frame (thus being a meaty attack) that number gets changed.
Ryu now only has 5 recovery frames to go through before he is back to neutral and can act.
His enemy still has to go through 9 blockstun frames because the game only has 1 set value for non counterhit block or hitstun (meaning the game dosnt take into account that ryu hit his enemy in his later active frames and thus reducing the blockstun frames acordingly)
So you can skew the number that matter (block or hitstun advantage) by hitting with the move in its later active frames.
In this example Ryu would be plus 4 on block, giving the ryu player aditional options after the move is blocked or hits the oponent.
This being in the game is one of those unintentional things from the very early street fighters that they left in the future games to give it extra depth. Funny enough the combo system was also an unintentional mishap in the very first version of street fighter 2
So Ryu gets guaranteed meaty set ups on like every knockdown.
That’s pretty big.
If it has been discussed before forgive me.
Ryu’s HP Hadoken, in my opinion, may be his greatest footsie button. I’m also finding that playing closer to your opponent makes HP Hadoken that much better. Why. It’s pretty damn hard to react at a range that is so close. Plus the opposition has to react almost immediately to punish, or make a guess, or make a read against you. But when you vary it with LP Hado, which again is another great poke, you begin to see just how strong his HP variant is. Especially against Nash, Dictator and Karin. Obviously you must very your game plan, but when you start to parry or DP jump ins, it makes the HP Hado that much scarier. Ryu definitely feels like a strong character right now. Thoughts?
I wonder what the big fuss about Nash is? ive beaten most of my matchups against him. Most Nash are reactive players. Get them to commit to sometinng until it leaves them with nothing.
The only problem I have with him is if there is an aggressive Nash. Other than that just zone him back into a corner then start applying pressure.
On paper the matchup should be Nash favored (allthough slight) he has the better ground game with normals at range, while ryu has good pressure options up close, Nash has better fireballs and a 100% way to get out of a corner if he blocks anything while having V-Reversal meter, while Ryu isnt afforded the same ability. That part of the game within the game could also be the tipping point of most highest level games in this matchup.
What i think tips it into a slight Nash favored matchup however is the fact that Ryu dosnt have a way to bully his way past his Anti Air normals like fx Ken can do with VT’ed air tatsu that blows up his normals.
It’s not as bad as its been made out to be but its not Ryu favored, thats for sure.
I think Ryu fights every character of the cast except maybe dhalsim to atleast at 4.5 (and at that point you really need to be at the very highest level for it to truely matter) but then again i prob think the Ryu matchup vs Chun-Li is better than most think it is.
I need Fang experience. I’ve beaten em but I wasn’t happy. Potential comebacks could have happened just cause I didn’t know wtf to do.
Yeah Ryu’s oki meaty game is strong.
Even his V-Reversal isn’t free, if you read it you can tick grab him out of it. You can also stuff his V-Trigger with a good meaty. Nash has no invincible wakeup options, not even with meter. Once you knock him down, if you deny him his V-Reversal and V-Trigger, you win.
You definitely need to stay patient against Nash. The vast majority of them will get bored of throwing fireballs and commit to something risky eventually, like dashing, jumping, or moonsaulting. If you can stop these you’re in good shape.
While its absolutly true you can bait the V-Reversal, in practice that isnt as easy, as you make it sound like just look at the set between Julio & Li Joe, Julio def knew about the options that Nash had on his wake up but Li Joe kept mixing up between waking up with Normals, V-Reversal, V-Trigger, Reversal Super & just blocking and when you get into that sort of complexity, it isnt that cut & dry anymore. Nash has more options on his wake up with full V-Reversal than Ryu has with his invincible DP, Normals, V-Reversal (this isnt comparable to Nash’es V-Reversal) & Reversal Super (if your jyobin) and that makes it a scary prospect, in time we are prob going to see the emergance of possible setups to cover most of these options that Nash has but as of right now, its as much a guessing game for Ryu as it is for Nash at the highest level and that does give the Nash the edge in this aspect.
One of the more dangerous aspects are def going for overheads, that gets meet with V-Trigger that leaves you cornered, knocked down and at the mercy of Nash.
The one character that is truely defenseless against Ryu would be someone like Zangeif that has nothing on wakeup outside of wakeup jab, or EX SPD to counter throws but Nash has options and most of them are more scary than any character with a 3f dp.
And yes while i do agree with you and Rockman85 that most Nash players will be tentative in their ground game and if pressured enough will crack and do something you can react and punish, that should not be the messuring stick for how a matchup is played out on paper.
As i said before, this only really applys to the highest level of SFV, the advantage Nash has over Ryu should be so slight that it will only matter when you have two people that gets absolutly everything out of each character fighting each other.
I’ve been going through all of his moves that case KD and finding the frame advantage manually. From DP to CC V-trigger canceled s.fp. Tedious but found some fun stuff like meaty s.mk linked into s.lk or s.fierce link into s.mp.
Before I saw this I was sort of coming to the same conclusion about B.HK but with out the data. I particularly notice in matches where you can’t get into range to play midrange - like Birdie - that back HK not only will AA, but it will stuff other usually dominant moves with the second hit as it comes down.
Definitely one of his best footsie normals although not traditionally. It’s probably the best button if you push yourself out of range, but want to still press something.
Something doesn’t seem right about that. Both F+HP and B+HK reach further than sweep. Are they not counting the forward movement that happens during those moves? Besides that it’s interesting to see their are actually slight differences between st. HP, st. LK, and cr. MK. I’ve never found a range where one of them would hit and the others would not in training mode.
Nah I think it’s right. Sweep isnt great and if you throw out b +HK in footsies you sometimes see the second hit landing from really far! And it combos afterwards too. I really need to add that and s HK to my game.
Does anyone use s HK as a meaty? It gets you the crush. I played Bison and his gameplay revolves around cc fishing. I need to mess with it. S HP is good but the timing is quite tight as it doesn’t seem to have many active frames (haven’t checked the data on this)
Checked s HP has 3 framed active and s HK only 2. Must be my timing on the s HP. I’m gnna go for that more as a meaty.
S.Hk meaty is going to lose to practically everything ( if you mean the crush counter s.hk and not back HK) , better using it from about st.mp range , it’s quite good at stuffing the start up of Ryus FB in the mirror ( as an example of the range)
Plus it whiffs on crouching opponents so its more or less useless in the close range poke game
Yep yep you guys are right.
b+:hk: is becoming my new favorite anti-air tool over cr.HP. It beats far more moves, has longer reach, and results in a knockdown. Generally less damage, but the perks outweigh that IMO.
Oops, I didn’t mean B+HK, I meant st. HK instead. That and F+HP both have more range than B+HK. But I’m just wondering if they’re not counting the step forward that Ryu takes and only the active frames when the move they can actually hit the opponent.
I’m starting to incorporate B+HK more in my game, but I still rarely use st. HP and st. HK. I’m just too afraid of st. HK whiffing all the time and st. HP doesn’t seem worth it to me unless I score a counter hit because I’m not going to be able to confirm that off a non counter hit. I do think about using st. HK as a gimmick though. Kind of like how people use Sagat’s F+HK in SF4. Purposely whiff it and then mash DP in case they’re not ready for it lol. I wouldn’t use it often, but it might be a nice gimmick to use once in a while.
I kind of agree on both these moves. I’m not really finding that much utility for st.HK even as an anti-air… there are very specific ranges where it hits and MP Shoryu doesn’t, but good opponents don’t tend to jump from those angles anyway.
For st.HP, I can see that there’s a specific range (maximum st.HP range) where st.HP > st.HK is the most damaging punish possible for a whiffed throw, but it seems like a really corner case scenario unless you’re getting the crush-counter. For players who can effectively bait throw techs, I can see this would have mileage, and it is safe on block. I want to use it more, but I’m not there yet.