Ryu changes in SSFIV thread

[prof21]

Ryu’s combos are easy to connect once you hit them, his moves have gratuitous amounts of frame advantage. Why should this be nerfed? Why doesn’t every character have this?

Well it’s a careful balance and probably my opinion as a result of past games but I think the game is easy mode enough as it is. We want everyone to have powerful options of course, but whereas a lot of people like yourself seem to be saying “make everyone’s options as easy as Ryu’s”, I’d prefer if Ryu’s (and Rog, etc.) options were little harder to actually pull off. Not to the point where you need to dedicate hours to be able to hit bnb’s but I mean, come on…the game is already VERY casual/scrub friendly and I’d prefer not to see it continue down that road further.

And regarding Sagat…no, you can’t really say that everything he has just works the way its designed to, because a lot of what makes him so dangerous in the hands of a good player is that he has a lot of things that he frankly shouldn’t have according to his design. He was clearly conceived as a huge tank that can both deal and take big damage, as well as a zoning master. That’s already quite formidable so of course he should be slow and have low mobility. Problem is, that’s not the case because of tools he has that render his supposed weakness of speed irrelevant. Is there ANY reason why slow tank Sagat should have a 3 frame cr.jab? Meanwhile Vega’s is 4? Perfect example of why I have to disagree with the “don’t nerf anything” crowd. Make everyone better overall, sure. But yes, certain moves and aspects should be toned down.

[Kich]

My point was that openings should lead to damage. Character’s bread and butter combos shouldn’t involve 1 frame links, a 1 frame link is a stone’s throw away from being a 1 hit hit confirm. Take Guile – C.lp(x2 if you need it) > c.mp > Flash Kick is just about his highest “not super dangerous to attempt outside of a crumple” damaging ground combo. If you were to miss that link, the flash kick would get blocked and you’re staring at a great deal of health about to go down the train because you minutely fucked up your execution while trying to punish someone for horrendously fucking up their defensive strategy.

Things like that bother me. Technical combos are fine, but not when they’re all a character has to rely on (Chun Li comes to mind). And I think a better question would be why does Sagat’s 3 frame jab impact Vega’s 4 frame jab? Would Sagat having a 4 frame jab as well make Vega’s any better?

[Coth_X]

My point was that openings should lead to damage. Character’s bread and butter combos shouldn’t involve 1 frame links, a 1 frame link is a stone’s throw away from being a 1 hit hit confirm. Take Guile – C.lp(x2 if you need it) > c.mp > Flash Kick is just about his highest “not super dangerous to attempt outside of a crumple” damaging ground combo. If you were to miss that link, the flash kick would get blocked and you’re staring at a great deal of health about to go down the train because you minutely fucked up your execution while trying to punish someone for horrendously fucking up their defensive strategy.

Things like that bother me. Technical combos are fine, but not when they’re all a character has to rely on (Chun Li comes to mind). And I think a better question would be why does Sagat’s 3 frame jab impact Vega’s 4 frame jab? Would Sagat having a 4 frame jab as well make Vega’s any better?

Well the question would sagat having a 4 frame jab make vega’s better is the wrong way to look at it. Does sagat need a 3 frame jab? Does vega need a 4 frame jab? What would be the impact of changing both? Or just one?

The designers found some sort of justification for sagat/vegas current jabs.

[Kich]

I’d say yeah, vega does need a 4 frame jab, his pokes have outstanding distance. More hit stun to compensate for when you connect it so it’s not a 1 frame link for each jab, but I’ve already gone over that, bread and butter combos shouldn’t have 1 frame links in them, ergo, no, Vega’s jab as it stands isn’t alright and should be changed. Is Sagat’s 3 frame jab alright? Sure, he has other options than that for BNB and it serves it’s purpose.

The rest of Sagat’s normals are horrendously slow compared to everyone else’s except that 1 jab that can’t even link into another normal but itself and at that it’s a 1 frame link. He also, if I’m not mistaken, can’t chain them. So there’s certainly a justification there, being that if you use it, you either have to cancel off of it or be comfortable with chaining several 1 frame links together, as it gives balls hit stun compared to other people’s crouching jabs.

[Nitro263]

Yes you would. play Fei long for a month straight, 5 hours a day. You’ll start to say

"man I wish Fei Long could do this thing that Ryu can do. "

“Man I wish Fei’s BnB combos weren’t twice as hard as Ryu’s.”

“Man I wish Fei’s Ultra didn’t suck unlike Ryu’s.”

“Man I wish my Low Forward could be cancelled into something besides super.”

“Man I wish my sweep had longer range like Ryu’s.”

“At least I have a good overhead; Oh shi-”

And Fei Long isn’t one of the characters being referred to. Sakura’s my other main, and I’ve played Abel, Guile, and Cammy as Alternates (though now it’s down to just Sak and Cam). I know all about the disadvantages of playing with a lower tier character, and the answer is that you deal. You work with what you have, and don’t try to play a different character like you were playing with Ryu.

If I’m Fei, I’m not gonna sit and mope about what Ryu has that I don’t. I’m gonna concern myself with EX Chicken Winging over fireballs into BnBs, Using my rekkas for pressure and frame traps, abusing the long range and deceptive speed of my FA, etc. I’m certainly not going to bitch about my BnBs being hard, because guess what? nobody’s making me play with Fei but me.

Of course Ken needs to walk faster and have a better srk…it needs to be as good as Ryu’s and Ryu’s needs to be worse. We already had this discussion and you, like most Ryu players, ignored the logic and instead just got very uncomfortable at the prospect of playing a character that doesn’t excel at every aspect of the game.

That said, Parabellum’s point still stands. Yeah Ken should have an awesome srk because he’s always been about having an awesome srk. But complain about srk trading in SF4 to a Rose player. Ken’s the worst shoto in the game and he’s still not really bad at anything. This is the point of the post you quoted…and yet you respond by again repeating your mantra of not taking anything away from King of All Trades and in fact, no surprises here, you want more tools, thus serving as an example of the very thing Parabellum was talking about, in the very post where you attempt to disagree.

No, your logic is simply flawed. Obviously you’ve ignored every counterpoint I’ve made to your mantra of “Ryu should be made weaker/given a weakness/is OP and unfair for other characters”, and just carry on as if your opinion is perfect and anyone disagreeing is clearly ignoring your logic, or biased, or whatever.

What a joke. Para’s general point was something I actually agree with. Any actual gripes that any shoto could say to a low tier character is like preaching to a choir. However, my counter was simply that acknowledging other characters problems doesn’t negate the fact that the character clearly has problems. Pay attention, that’s the important part.

Therefore, just maining a character that’s worse won’t change people’s opinions that some things about a shoto (namely, Ken), need to be made better.

It’s funny how you reference my stance on Ryu in an attempt to discredit me, when my point countering Para’s was concerning Ken. Just goes to show that either you really haven’t been paying attention, or maybe you’re just ignorant.

Though to be honest I just think you’re out of touch with reality. You land all the combos in vids like [media=youtube]DBabueAh_Qk"[/media] 100% and then tell us that Ryu’s combos are easy mode, or don’t take hours of practice to hit consistently. Easier than most, sure. But all characters should have combos like that. Easy BnBs, intermediate BnBs, hard Combos.

If you review the thread, my stance is exactly the same as Kich. In fact, 2 people have just now pretty much made my whole point for me. I don’t see you calling them clueless. Maybe I didn’t say it simply enough for you.

Ryu’s not overpowered, he just works properly. I’ve spent time with every character but blanka and sim, and the only really defining trait I can see with Ryu is that his shit works. There’s no other way to describe it other than, it works. His hadouken, shoryuken, tatsu, super, and ultra, and all EX variants, work clearly as intended. There’s no misconceptions about any of them. Even his normals function just like they should.

Ryu’s combos are easy to connect once you hit them, his moves have gratuitous amounts of frame advantage. Why should this be nerfed? Why doesn’t every character have this? Why should anyone’s bread and butter combo’s take hours of practice to hit 100%? That mind set should be THE mind set. As ryu you can quite easily just tap the buttons out and do what you want drop the FADC wait half a sec throw the ultra BOOM 600 damage combo.

…And people want Ryu nerfed while simultaneously wanting a more offensive game? I find that a little ironic.

And it’s not about making Guile and Dhalsim more offensive, it’s about making what they were given function at a highly usable rate. Flash Kick isn’t at that point and hell to be perfectly honest Sonic Boom isn’t either (all of them should have the same recovery and a smidge more damage). That’s the bottom line, Ryu excels hard because of massive frame advantage and absolutely perfectly designed specials mixed in with a dominating super and ultra. As a long time Guile main, he just doesn’t work. His damage output is garbage and his specials don’t give him any outstanding advantages.

It’s the same thing with Sagat–everything functions very much as you’d expect it to.

It’s not a matter of them being overpowered or anything, it’s just that they were clearly designed as intended and just about everyone else fell short.

On that last note…nobody in SFIV is overpowered. Your character is either really good, decent or just sucks. That’s the reason Ryu seems overpowered. Cuz your character probably just sucks. There are very few really good characters in the game. It’s like a bunch of minor league characters facing off against a few major league characters. The major league characters are tested for drugs and playing pretty damned fair compared to top tiers from older SF games but the minor league characters are just that bad compared to them.

I’d rather have a game where everyone works like Ryu as opposed to one where everyone sucks like Vega. You take a shot at me for “asking for more tools”, but you don’t even take into account that that request was for something to make him different, not better or worse, in respect to SSFIV, in which everyone is getting new tools. My requests for Ryu are trivial compared to what I’d request for everyone else, but this is a Ryu thread.

In other news, I agree on your Sagat stance, but only in the context that it’s something he doesn’t need, irrespective of other characters. The high mobility he has resulting from the same effect that gives him extreme zone control is a tad bit much, and Sagat has never been a fast character, so a 3 frame anything seems outside of his scope. But what makes him almost too good is that he has great health AND superior damage output on top of that.

[Trini_Judoka]

ok, seeing as everyone else is doing it i think it’s time for a Ryu update in SSFIV.

now ive been a long time SF playa and Ryu main-er so i kno my shiz. ive entered in comps and placed top 10 nationally. again i know my shite

so heres what ry needs in the update:

1. improve recovery of SRK. its his staple bnb move so why is it so easy to punish? sure give a window to punish, but not give a damn double door :looney:

2. give his norm SRK invulnerability for tha first few frames. sick of seeing it trade or even getting flat out beat by some bullshit moves.

3. why the hell his focus cancel -> ultra get nerf so much? pls put the dmg back to normal and not scale it down just cos we have the skill to cancel ultra it.

4. less recovery on his sweep

5. ryu needs better anti-crossup ability. prob make tatsu invincible start up frames too

6. i don’t mind that sagat can do faster fireballs, but then at least make ryus do double dmg. its not too much 2 ask

7. we can fireball super/ultra, but why cant we do it in the air? this needs to be added, no q’s about it.

8. lastly, giv his lp and mp SRK same priority as his hp SRK. its just dumb to not have same priority

K well thats the list what do u guys think?

You cant freaking be serious. Ryu is the most annoying character in the game.

I swear, this dude can land ultra literally 10 different ways!!!

Alas, I wont bitch. It makes a win against him much more rewarding BUT, BUT, BUT…

with Kyle Broflovski’s voice from South park I say shenanigans, shenanigans, shenanigans!!! There is no freaking way he should be allowed to keep j.mp > ultra. Oh my goodness, was the EX tatsu in the corner, the DP that he didn’t even need to FADC, the lp.FB to Ultra, or the super to ultra not enough???

[rick_derris]

I say he’s fine just the way he is. If there’s gonna be another Ultra, then Help make way’s to link up to it. Simple as that. As for you ken lovers, go back to your thread.

[Nitro263]

LMAO, people are still falling for that first troll post? Mr. Simtang is clearly Troll Legend status at this point.

Considering he starts off calling SRK Ryu’s staple BnB move, that should have been your first clue guys.

[parabellum]

LOL, at this point with playing Chun, Dictator, and Rose (among others) I’m pretty used to having to hit tight links in order to pull of basic BnB combos.

My feeling is that combos should be hard, especially rewarding ones that do good damage (or have other nice properties like ending in an untechable knockdown).

I like where Ryu stands as far as combos go. I think he is the standard that others should be held to. He has simple combos that are easy to hit but do good but not great damage, but he ALSO has those really nasty combos like c.jabx2 > st.jabx2 > sweep or c.strong > c.strong > whatever.

His FADC game is top notch, right up there with Akuma and Sagat.

Again, I have NO problem with Ryu. He represents a nearly perfect design for SF4, I just would like to see Capcom really try to make MOST of the cast rise to this level.

I hear a lot of talk about “boring” characters, I’d like to briefly elaborate on that.

To me a “boring” character is one who has GREAT options for every situation. Now, before you go flaming me for that…what I mean to say is that when you play a character with great options for every situation, their gameplay starts to feel pretty flat after a while. They almost always have the same basic gameplan from match to match, because their options are fairly universal.

I like it when a character has ONE really great universal tool. Examples would be Ryu’s jab Dp, or boxers jab, or Akuma’s Demon Flip, or Ryu’s fireball, or Sagat’s tiger knee.

The thing with Sagat, Ryu, and Boxer, is that their tools are almost all on that level…and that means that fighting against them can feel really boring and a bit frustrating. I feel that characters with great universal options have to learn the individual details of each matchup less than other characters with flaws that you have to navigate around.

Second to Dhalsim, I play the most situation-specific character in the game. Learning Chun and playing her in 4 tourneys in 2009 (and more in 2010 for sure) has been a major challenge, and the learning curve has been fairly massive. If I want to AA someone, I need to know THEM just as well as I know Chun, and that is something that Ryu, Ken, Sagat, Rufus (EX messiah), and boxer (ex headbutt) simply cannot ever claim.

I guess the reason I mention this is that I think a lot of people’s frustrations with Ryu comes from fighting a character who really doesn’t have to make big changes to his gameplan from match to match. Sure, once Chun or Abel get ultra, he has to REALLY cut back on the fireball zoning…but other than that…all his tools still work universally in most of the matchups in this game.

The game is more fun, more rewarding, and produces better high level play when EVERY character has weaknesses that they have to work around differently in almost every match.

The problem is that Capcom went and created the top tiers with no major weaknesses (some minor ones for sure) that they have to play around…so now its really not an option to step back from that…they are going to have to try and bring more of the cast to that level…and I’m just not sure if that is going to result in more interesting, creative, high level game play…or if its going to end up making more of the matches feel boring.

Time will tell I guess…but I feel that Ryu definitely should not get nerfed and DEFINITELY should not get buffed unless its predicated on ALL of the current low and low mid tiers getting major buffs.

[SimpleKiss]

And Fei Long isn’t one of the characters being referred to. Sakura’s my other main, and I’ve played Abel, Guile, and Cammy as Alternates (though now it’s down to just Sak and Cam). I know all about the disadvantages of playing with a lower tier character, and the answer is that you deal. You work with what you have, and don’t try to play a different character like you were playing with Ryu.

If I’m Fei, I’m not gonna sit and mope about what Ryu has that I don’t. I’m gonna concern myself with EX Chicken Winging over fireballs into BnBs, Using my rekkas for pressure and frame traps, abusing the long range and deceptive speed of my FA, etc. I’m certainly not going to bitch about my BnBs being hard, because guess what? nobody’s making me play with Fei but me.

Whoosh. Right over your head. You should try reading posts in context to what they’re responding to.

[DominicanPower]

You dudes and your wishful thinking

[OmniCloud]

I’ve just read everyone’s post–even the long ones…

No one is actually listening to each other and instead are just trying to make points, and I guess prove that they are intellect or knowledgeable about a video game.

Parabellem I agree with you, but your first post is a bit insulting. Playing as shotos is easier, but no need to suggest any less lack of skill or dedication, because that’s kinda what you did a few posts up. Chun is a very specialized character though, you get what you ask for. Who doesn’t know how to defend against a shoto? (Ryu/Ken)

Everyone is saying the same thing though…No one is extremely OP, top tiers need weaknesses. The other half is buff everyone so they can match top tiers. I think that about sums it up in it’s most basic form.

I’m on the side of everyone having real weaknesses, and excelling at vastly different areas. Parabellem summed it up nicely.

[mondo619]

Ryus Shin/Metsu Srk @ 2:04 :tup:

GameTrailers

[time_attack]

As much as I agree that jumpins should be punishable, I just don’t think I should lose half my life for it.

huh??? “Made a mistake, the punishment should not be severe”. Really? Wow.

[Coth_X]

Well at least ryu doesn’t have back throw > ultra :lol:

[Trini_Judoka]

huh??? “Made a mistake, the punishment should not be severe”. Really? Wow.

Well, consider that most characters have nothing to deal with the jumping shoto x-up and RH. Very difficult to punish Ryu for his shenanigans unless you have perfect timing or altogether avoid that situation…yet Ryu will easily take half your life with an ill advised jump in.

Grrrr.

[Nitro263]

Whoosh. Right over your head. You should try reading posts in context to what they’re responding to.

Considering your post was responding to mine in the first place?

I’m not buying it.

Nice try, but you’ll have to do better than that.

I wonder what Ryu’s other alternate costume is going to look like? Judging by the ones shown it’s going to be something outlandish, lol.

Ryu vs. Ken Rival Battle FTW.

[Kich]

Ryu vs. Ken Rival Battle FTW.

I’m mildly disappointed, as this will only occur in single player, but I was seriously hoping that before the round started, it would zoom out just as the go to fist bump, take a step back, and then the round would start. Unique character intro’s were one of my favorite things about Third Strike =P. But I still greatly appreciate that Capcom at least put the fist bump in SOMEWHERE haha.

[Nitro263]

Yeah. Even though they did go the whole cinematic route with the character intros, they could have had some unique cinematics for some battles. That would have been worth it.

I was always partial to the noogie in Alpha 3 myself.

[King9999]

Ryu’s new Ultra is slick.