I agree with that. His karas, mixup games and tatsu don’t make up for the advantages Ryu has. It’s all about how to go about rectifying the situation. Instead of taking away from Ryu, which is the only sense in which talking about Ken belongs in this thread, I think it makes more sense to just improve Ken.
That’s exactly what it makes Ken’s. Ken’s walk speed is inexplicably a bit slow in this game. Even if Ryu had slow walk speed like Sagat, Ken’s walk speed would still be slow. Which is why fixing Ken by nerfing Ryu makes no sense.
Because their walk speeds are usually the same, or marginally in Ken’s favor. Walk speed was never a key difference between them.
No, this means that Ken should have tools that make him as efficient at his game as Ryu is at his. Whereas Ryu can rushdown, but is better at zoning, Ken should be better at rushdown along with decent zoning tools. As it stands, Ken’s not as good at either, which is due to aspects of Ken not working well as opposed to Ryu simply being better.
Alpha 2 would like a word with you. Also, Ryu being top tier in SFIV is a problem because he wasn’t top tier in other games? I don’t see your logic. Did you make this big of a deal in 3S when Ken was top tier and way better than Ryu?
Only he’s not arguably the best character in the game. Sagat is. The tier lists show that, the empirical data among tournament level players show that. Also, he’s not ‘buffed’. The only aspect at which he’s better than most other versions of the character is links. Except for the SFIII series, his Hadoken, SRK, damage output and Tatsu are all simply as good, if not worse than usual. His SRK is only worse in SFIII, and he traditionally threw fireballs faster than he does now. As well as knocked back or knocked down opponents with shaku without the use of meter.
It does make more sense to improve Ken. I think many people talk about the lp SRK simply because of SF2–where Ken’s is famous, and 3s where he could kara off of it. Ken’s lp SRK has been better in a lot of previous games, so I guess that mentality is what is spurring on the “swap srk” comments. It seems to fit Ken more to have a faster SRK.
I also agree on the Fierce DP hitbox comments. I would prefer it to have better hit box and be a decent AA that doesn’t do much damage, but you can FADC-Ultra off of it more reliably. It’s not that big of a deal though, cuz we do have mp.SRK
Ken’s MP is ok, but yeah, I don’t know why is c.HP is harder to link, as well as his cl.MP being this absurdly slow high hook that misses and is unsafe–essentially making target combo completely useless.
That aside, Ken’s lp are just better than Ryu’s, his c.mk is a bit faster I think, step kick is great, kara throw is great, and his Tatsu game is much more fun, though I wouldn’t call either of them better.
Ken is not as bad as some say. He’s just not Ryu, and because of that requires you know your matchups a bit more, because you don’t have as many tools as other shotos.
But don’t sleep, Ken has one of the easiest combos combos in the game that can seriously lead to you getting owned. Jump in HK–cl.RH–RH Tatsu takes away serious damage!! And if I have meter it will get even more dangerous.
I play with Ken because of his lp, his tatsu, and his more aggressive nature. It doesn’t make up for the benefits of Ryu because it doesn’t need to. Ken simply needs to be a better rusher and a decent zoner. He’s already a good rusher though.
Except he was always slower, and f+hp didn’t come about till ST. Furthermore his dp wasn’t as good as ken’s due to its recovery. Your videos don’t really prove much either.
EDIT: LOL what character didn’t rush down dictator in ST, he didn’t have a proper reversal except for super and his TOD’s meant you didn’t give him breathing room.
I could not find walk speed, but i assume Ryu and Ken are equal, except in ST where Ryu earns himself a dash.
The only game where there is clear difference in speed between Ken and Ryu, is 3rd Strike, and we all know how Capcom feels about using the models established in 3rd Strike. What does this mean, Ryu and Ken are identical in terms of speed, except for certain normals where Ryu has the advantage and Ken having an advantage with most of their similar specials.**
*advantage being speed.
** sf2 era, did not look at the alpha series, however I am willing to bet the same thing.
“Ken always walked faster” - I would like to see where you got the evidence for this.
In ST ken does walk faster than ryu. Anyone that plays it can tell you that. Aside from its obvious that you apparently don’t play it.
Lol I didn’t validate your point, you showed ryu bulldogging a dictator and then following that match, ryu attempts to zone boxer, who is rushing his shit down. The point is that any character can rush down, its just that certain characters are not designed for it, ryu having a slower recovering srk and a slower walk speed and a great hadoken made him better suited for zoning almost all of his opponents, where as ken with a slower hadoken, faster recovering srk and faster walk speed was better suited for getting close. The dictator is pretty much the only exception due to dictators TODs. You don’t let dictator get a foothold.
The 3s match look like a clash between two different skill levels.
In ST both shotos have essentially identical normals. Unlike the games that followed. Did you even read the frame data you quoted? For every normal they have in common they are the same.
Because the same walk speed and similar LP SRKs totally makes them the same character :rolleyes:
I’m pretty sure they had the same walking speed in just about every other SF. In ST Ryu covered ground faster, lol. I’ll have to try and test it in SFIII, but I’m fairly certain of this in the Alphas. If there is a difference, it’s negligible.
Which is why it’d be fine if Ken and Ryu’s walk speed was equal. I don’t know where you get Ken always walked faster.
Anyways, for me, fixing the balance is about building the other characters as well as Ryu is built. SFIV Ryu is everything a Ryu main could need or want within reason in terms of his practical purpose as a character. Along with that, there’s not really anything specially broken or OP about him with the closest to it being some annoying game mechanics he benefits from (trade Ultra, mash reversal, auto correction). If everyone worked as well at their intended purpose as Ryu does in his without being broken, SSFIV would be the closest there is to perfectly balanced (with a 30+ roster) game.
Which is why I have a laundry list of things I’d want fixed for other characters, (ranging from a little to a lot per character), and along with whatever new things planned for Sagat I’d add in a small damage output reduction, but for Ryu all I ask is his Joudan Sokutou Geri (SFIII mule kick; wall bounce on EX), and that the EX Tatsu glitch be fixed.
lets deal with the frame data first (here is 2 examples):
far st. kick - same until st where Ryu has a faster start up and faster recovery
close st. kick - same until st where Ryu has a faster start up and faster recovery
onto I never played st:
st was the first street fighter i played. Granted, I haven’t played st for awhile, but i donot ever recall, Ken having a noticeably quicker walk. The only time I saw a difference in speed was with the recovery of his DP, and his hurricane kicks. Secondly, I am not debating whether or not his walk is quicker or not I am merely asking where I can get that frame data to see for myself.
ST walk speed:
Anyways I downloaded a rom of st, I set left to a, right to d for player 1, left to d, right to a for player 2. Started a round with Ryu and Ken, pressed a until the sprites were on the very edge of the screen, pressed d they both arrived in the middle, at what my eyes can tell me, the same time.
the videos:
The 3s video here was showing segments of Ryu rushing down (note: Pyrolee was one of the best 3s players in Cali at the time).
The ST video was never meant to be taken as a whole, I was merely showing
evidence that Ryu can and has the ability to rush down, as can be seen in various segments of the video.
design:
I am not sure why you are being so pertinacious about this, I am merely debunking this “He’s never been a rushdown character” which is flawed. Considering his normals and command normals he was very much designed to have some rushdown aptitude.
I’ve always felt a difference in their walk speed switching between them. Perhaps its artificial but it feels like its there. I’m not saying he can’t rushdown, I’m saying that the way they designed his fireball in previous games he was always much better at zoning.
So can I. But one of the reasons I prefer Ryu over a heavily zone based character (like Sagat) is because rushdown was always an option for him, even if it’s usually not the best option. His versatility is a great point of his character, and SFIV Ryu demonstrates this build ideally (some would say unfairly so).
So I don’t really want to see him changed much, not because he’s top tier, but because he’s such an all-around good character in this game. Not broken, not even OP. Just a really good character.
there really isnt much to improve until we see how well the other cast has been improved or his matchups vs the new cast. except for the ex tatsu glitch where opponent apparently walks out of it after being hit by it.
I dont know if this is a glitch or not but being able to do two ex tatsu’s(400 damage) vs abel and dhalsim when spaced correctly in the corner seems to be a bit much
I’ve never seen the full 2nd EX Tatsu land, and I don’t think it does 400, due to scaling and the full Tatsu not landing.
Edit - Nevermind, I just tested it. yeah, full tatsus, 400 damage. It’s hard as hell to space, and it doesn’t work on everyone. I think that’s something wrong with Abel and Sim’s hitboxes when they’re in spin juggle status.
EX Tatsu shouldn’t leave them spinning in the corner in the first place. It should send them flying to the other side of the screen like Akuma’s usually does. He doesn’t need two seperate ex moves that both can be followed up with ultra in the corner. So either you can do EX Hado to ultra (w/o needing extra meter to FADC) for the extra damage, or you can do EX tatsu instead for still decent damage and reset the opponent far away to zone again.
This is pretty dumb and it also applies to Sagat. Why do Sagat and Ryu get free ultra off of an EX ts or hado in the corner without having to spend meter for the fadc? I don’t land it much with Sagat because he’s not the type of character that can really corner people well, but it’s still bullshit either way.