Yeah what the hell. Ken is supposed to rush down and Ryu is supposed to zone and footsie like a madman.
It boggles the mind.
On a semi-related note, does Kens’ fireball really need to be that horrible? I mean the EX one could at least knock down.
id like to see the c.HP hitboxes redesigned, that thing is better than a shoryuken as anti-air. Also to make something about the shoryukens trading with jump ins, ryu shall get a clean hit on its enemy if the dp touch the enemy while ryu still is on the ground, its an anti-air after all. The dp thing is more a nerf than anything, but its the right thing to do in order to make him a bit more fair. Id not change anything else than that.
I had this discussion the other day. Ken’s hado is perfect, IMO, exactly what it should be. As you said, his game doesn’t revolve around it so I think buffing it would be counterintuitive to his game. So leave that alone and just make him better at what he’s supposed to be good at. Ideally, I think Ryu should have Ken’s current walk speed and Ken should have Akuma’s. And for God’s sake, make Ken’s srk better than Ryu’s. Easier said than done since Capcom doesn’t seem to want to take anything away to appease the tier whores. But all I’m saying is lets restore the two characters’ attributes and strengths to what they’ve always been.
I still think he should get a knockdown on the EX version, same as Ryu. I mean it’s just too much that Ryu scores a knockdown on his but all Ken’s rewarded with is like a piddly 30 damage or something when passing through a fireball.
It would really help in his bad Ryu and Sagat matchups. Getting a knockdown on them is very important and this would help even the playing field.
At the risk of getting shit on for ressurecting the argument…
IMO, using a character with poor tools even if the tools are technically easy to should also fall into the realm of “difficult to use”, imo, because you’re forced into using that weaker toolset in the most efficient way.
I mean seriously, are going to argue that its easy for Vega to zone the opponent so that he’s always at the max range of df.HK or FA, then comboing into a scarlet terror everytime he connects the df.HK?
Not requiring a fast joystick or button input doesn’t necessarily make a move ‘easy’. Difficulty can present in other ways too. Claw is difficult to use because Claw players need to develop quick reactions (have to do anti-air moves early in the opponent’s jump rather than later) and the most anal appreciation of distance in order to use him.
Maybe you’d feel better if the term is “difficult to use well” but that’s just sophistry.
Dude it’s best to leave this discussion alone. I was touched in a bad place by a mod for it.
Sure, lets bring it back to topic then.
Ryu is harder to use than Sagat because using him well requires deeper match up knowledge.
Same thing. Difficulty isn’t spinning the joystick fast or pressing the buttons at the right time for a particular link or cancel.
Watching the situation, using your brain to make an assessment of which option you need to use in a situation- that is also a form of difficulty. Because Sagat’s options tend to be a lot stronger than Ryu’s, Sagat players experience less of this sort of difficulty than Ryu players do.
Yeah its difficult to keep Honda out by Kara-uppercutting him everytime he jumps at 3/4 screen away. But you know what’s more difficult? Not having a 3/4 screen uppercut and still being able to keep him out. Honda jumps from that same distance- if he attacks and you uppercut, you hit, if he doesn’t attack and you uppercut, you whiff. You need to watch him till the last micro-second and make a decision based on all the other jumps he’s made in the match to choose the right option.
That’s more difficult than hitting a kara-uppercut anytime from the moment he jumps at 3/4 screen away.
Well I was convinced that Ken was supposed to be about rushing and not zoning so his FB is designed to be slower.
I do agree his EX FB sucks for no reason though. Keep the damage the same, keep the speed and recovery (which is actually his only gd one) but plz make that thing knockdown. It’s absolutely ridiculous that a shoto can DP like a second after getting hit with Ken’s EX FB which every other shotos knocks you on your boo-boo…lol
I think the speed of all his FB are perfectly fine, but I think his lp FB recovery is just a little bit too slow.
Ken SRK are fine besides his lp one. It’s just asinine that Ryu’s lp srk is a better poke than Kens. Would nice if we could use TC too so I could link into his EX srk more–because it’s really good.
No big things need to be changed with Ken, walking speed and the lp DP swap are the biggest question marks for me.
Ken is stuck in the middle of an average zoner and a good rushdown character. Small perks to both would put him right under the Ryu/Rog/Sagat/Akuma tier–which is where I think he should be. Ken is the freakin man!!
A knockdown on EX would really help though. I freakin hate trying to sweep a Sagat with Ken’s slow RH sweep.
Not disputing anything here, just thought this was interesting
[media=youtube]z7uyfddOk9k[/media]
Yeah the difference in speed isn’t that big of a deal…It’s Ken’s recovery that gets him killed…That vid won’t show it too clearly, but in a match those couple frames more of recovery gets you jumped in on and kicked in the friggin head—hard.
Ken should walk faster, and have a better LP SRK. His EX Hadoken is already the fastest Hadoken, but for it to truly be worth using it should have faster recovery and/or startup, not necessarily KD on hit. A good amount of frame advantage, like +3 or so on hit would be fine.
What I don’t get is how this at all pertains to Ryu. Justifying the idea of nerfing Ryu based on what Ken doesn’t have is nonsense.They’re two separate characters, and they’ll be fighting more than each other. Making aspects of Ryu worse doesn’t make Ken any better, except against Ryu. Ken needing improvements doesn’t necessitate making a different character worse.
So, it’s not “make Ken’s SRK better than Ryu’s”, so much as it’s “Make Ken’s SRK better”. Simply making Ryu’s worse is a different issue entirely, and doesn’t solve Ken’s problems, so I’m not getting this whole “swap” vibe going on.
But I guess since it’s not very apparent that Ryu needs any negative changes, the only way to make it seem like he does is to look at the “have-nots”? I prefer balance ideas based on a character’s own merit, not comparisons to a different character entirely.
Of course people are gonna compare Ryu and Ken, they’re the shoto twins and its been established over the course of the series that Ryu is the stronger, serious one with a better hadoken and Ken is the faster, flashier one with a better dp. Now SF4 comes around and Ryu is the stronger, faster one with the better hadoken and dp. Seems like something went wrong there. So actually, yeah, it IS “make Ken’s SRK better than Ryu’s.” As it stands now, there’s not much reason for anyone to use Ken over Ryu besides aesthetic/character design preferences. Why use one character when another is better at almost everything the first does, plus has a bunch of extra perks as well?
Now if you don’t want to touch Ryu and just buff Ken, it would be a larger jump in every area that you’re buffing, which would have larger implications with balancing vs. the rest of the cast. Ryu’s lp srk is already so good, how are they gonna make Ken’s better? Make it startup in 2 frames? Instant recovery? And really, why does zoning master Ryu need such a speedy walk in the first place? Rushdown Ryu shouldn’t exist, its not the nature of the character.
On the subject of ken ryu comparisons, and sorry in advance if this sounds like flame bait:
Does anyone else think that ryu and ken’s normals got switched or something? Ryu 's just so linktastic and ken…isn’t. The difference in sweeps and walking speed specifically scream “NO” to me. Everything ryu does at close range is something that I would expect ken to be able to do, for the most part. If you’d have told me ken was going to be worse at comboing than ryu pre SF4, I’d call you crazy. It’s like ryu in SF4 is actually ken with a really good fireball.
Anyone else think this, or just me?
I think Kens main damage output other then ending in a fierce shoryuken is a tatsu mix up . and tatsu mix ups suck in this game , hese not even on plus frames after them. IMO he needs to be on par with ryu. ken low tier in a sf game???
This Ken/Ryu comparison is one of the most logical things I’ve seen here. Ken should be slightly faster in walk speed. I think his FP DP is pretty powerful, it has a wide range. It’s almost like there’s a line of source code that’s backwords between them.
powerful as in damage output? 140 damage, less then ryu’s, so no, its weaker. Now range?, yes, you do sort of catch them from a distance, problem is his priority. When most of the cast has some sort of jump in/normals that cleanly beats it I want to punch kittens
Of course, people are going to compare them. That doesn’t make it any more logical when talking about making Ken better, or changing Ryu. Ken’s SRK needs to be better. What does that simple fact have to do with Ryu? Not a damn thing.
I’ll ask Dr. Chaos the next time I see him. I’d say it’s stuff like the better mixup game, Kara throws and EX SRK, but I don’t main Ken.
A 3 frame startup, the same as Ryu and Akuma’s would be good, for starters. Again, Ken’s SRK needs to be better not just better than Ryu’s. Balancing is supposed to be vs. the entire cast. Not just Ryu. As for making it better, near instant recovery wouldn’t be the first time that happened. More invincibility frames on LP SRK would be an option, or you could just leave it at 3 frame startup and the same recovery as Ryu’s. The more apparent problem is the fact that HP SRK doesn’t work well as an anti-air and doesn’t do enough damage, sometimes it whiffs the followup hits and doesn’t KD.
Which is also the case completely independent of Ryu. I’d suggest 160-170 damage, KD starting on first hit, and an extended hitbox that starts a bit closer to his head. At least two of those would be fine.
Ryu’s walk isn’t all that fast. It’s just faster than Ken’s. Personally I think they should have the same walk speed, or a marginal difference in Ken’s favor. Ryu’s all around basic. Sagat’s the zoning master. Dhalsim is all about zoning. You can rushdown with Ryu in most games, Ken’s just usually better at it. At this point you’re just shoehorning Ryu into an identity that doesn’t completely fit him.
I’d also suggest that at least HK and EX Tatsu leave Ken at frame advantage on hit. EX Tatsu leaving him +2 on hit, HK Tatsu +1 on hit. For the most part his normals are fine, his target combo just needs to be fixed, and if they are going to keep the links into sweep, just make Ken’s a frame or two faster on startup so that he can link into it easier. It already recovers faster. Lastly I’d suggest that EX Hadoken have better recovery and startup. If you want an EX Hado that KDs, play another character.
Fierce is for combos, medium is Ken’s anti-air. Less trading and more damage.
Nitro, I still disagree. The characters are linked by the storyline and, more importantly, their gameplay. Because of their overall similarities, its important that each has advantages over the other. IMO Ken’s kara throw and risky tatsu mixup game aren’t nearly enough to make up for all of the categories that Ryu’s better in, which is why it makes even less sense that they decided to make him better in ways that are usually Ken’s forte. I mean, if Ryu’s walk speed isn’t all that fast and basic, then what does that make Ken’s - slow? A rushdown character with a slow walk, what were they thinking there? And you feel like they should have the same speed -why? Should Ken get the better hadoken too? They have differences and they should expand on them, which means Ryu should have to sacrifice for his superior zoning (not to mention the huge Ultra advantage that’s new to SF4). He’s never been a rushdown character…and he’s never really been top tier either, (besides I guess HF but tiers didn’t really matter in that game) but rather generally mid to high-mid, as a “perfectly balanced” character would be. It’s only because of all of the areas that they strangely decided to buff him, along with the mechanics of the game working in his favor, that allow him to suddenly be effective as a rushdown character, or effective in pretty much any style, which results in him being arguably the best in the game.
yes i do understand the difference of his medium dp to his fierce but when for purely a rushdown standpoint his fierce is what is used since his range of it is by far more important then damage output. Sure he has got certain dp’s for certain situations but they all are combo weak. you are limited to his FP dp when trying to get your CH FADC dp to full ultra
So much could go wrong with your attack you end up leaving yourself open to those that really do have a nice fadc setups
From a grounded standpoint on the offense
1.light dp= start up and recovery hurt you more then not
2.mediuim dp?=have to be practically kissing them to connect both, not close enough your open
3.fp dp? weak priority and the weird hit glitch leaves you open or just cleanly beats you
anyways. we are involving ken in a ryu improvement thread, so I will get us back on track
…damn…cant think of any weaknesses
Make Ryu’s hit strings harder to connect like Guile. Ryu’s hardest hitstring (if there is one) is easier to do than Guile’s easiest. Every time I switch from the two characters, it throws me off. It’s unbalanced, and unfair.