Yeah…you may not know that move A recovers in X amount of frames and move B starts up in 3 less, etc…but you still find out what matters through trial and error.
Right, and that’s how everyone would work in an ideal game. The problem is when you have characters that have given weaknesses…and not much to make up for them. While on the other end of the spectrum there are characters with so many tools to “make up for” weaknesses that they don’t actually have.
It’s also why it’s pretty much impossible to make Dhalsim as good as Ryu without super breaking him (ie, giving him offensive pressure or incredible keepaway).
Like, let’s say there’s a number between 1 to 10 which describes a character’s potential in a given area (offense, defense, normals, threat at different ranges, whatever). Ryu is supposed to be a jack of all trades, so you’d expect this number to be average or slightly above average for each. Unfortunately, SF4 Ryu was made pretty strong at virtually every category (let’s arbitrarily put this number at 8/10). Meanwhile, the developers intended certain other characters to be REALLY good at one or two things (let’s put this number at 9/10), but then made them a 5 or less at other areas to balance it.
The end result is Ryu being really good and these other characters being mid-tier. However, let’s say the developers don’t want to make any character a 10 in any category, as a balance principle. What are their choices now? Dhalsim is supposed to be weak in certain areas, and they don’t want to make him a 10 at his strong stuff. They don’t want to redesign the character.
The answer is to tweak certain move properties (maybe bumping a 4 at close range to a 5 or something), but the answer is to NOT make Dhalsim a beast at close range, with the ability to punish whiffed dragon punches for Ryu-esque damage without super. The idea is not to give Dhalsim a free get-off-me move “because he needs it, he gets raped for free up close”. Or whatever else certain people argue for.
Because the bar for Ryu has been set so high in all these areas, and assuming Capcom doesn’t nerf Ryu, other characters that specialize in one area and are worse than Ryu right now probably will still be worse than him in the sequel.
(Jeez, why are all my posts always so long. :looney:)
Hey, I have an idea. Let’s read too far into my posts that were meant as a reply to someone saying Ryu’s ultra needs to be nerfed because someone said “Noone’s talking about the damage. His ultra is just too easy to land.”. To say that Ryu’s ultra is too easy to land would imply a comparison to the ultras of other characters. So I bring up Rufus, who; 1. Has just as many easy setups as Ryu, 2. Has an ultra that deals MORE damage than Ryu’s, and 3. Is, for some odd reason, NOT causing people to bitch and moan about the ‘brokenness’ of SF4.
Just because you end up pitted against Ryu players who punish you for using TK at unsafe distances and smash on you for generally not knowing what you’re doing doesn’t mean that the character is in need of a nerf.
He also used Makato, and Sagat, but his main was always Ryu. Like I care anyway, the point I was trying to make was to stick with one character.
How does Ryu’s projectile ultra distinguish him from anyone if it’s usually only used in combos anyway?
Yeah, seems like we’re in complete agreement on this. Basically the same thing I’ve been saying regarding balancing the game and in response to everyone that says Ryu is perfectly balanced, the whole “don’t nerf anyone, just buff everyone” crowd, et. al.
I understand that you like your Ryu to be really good at everything and you like your Sagat to be able to TK across 3/4 of the screen but those things never should have been in the game in the first place. The characters would still be good without them…only change is that players that use those characters would just have to work a little harder (like the rest of the roster) to earn victories instead of being so braindead.
lol at calipower’s replies. i love it when this guy posts.
Unproven Scrub: " given ryu’s moveset, its clear that unlike most other characters he has something to deal with every situation and is thus top tier"
calipower: “train up kids, its the player not the character. i play ryu btw.”
Ryu doesn’t need nerfing, he’s a great character. i play blanka and when you play a real ryu you clearly see why he’s right up there. The problem with ryu is that it really takes a truly exceptional player to consistantly win as the fireball srk game is really hard to pull off at the top. The way i see it if you play ryu perfectly you’ll win by a slim margin vs any character, anything less that an almost perfect ryu and you’re fair game to be beat.
Yeah people talk about player this, player that, but the truth is people remember the upsets more than anything else, that’s all it is.
Beer this guy right here. Somebody give him a 6 pack.
Make it 24, im thirsty. Seriously, this is one of the better posts around this thread. No bs. Make them work smarter.
Unfortunately scrubs like to win easily and Capcom seems to really be consciously catering to that demo with SF4. This is where the whole “Don’t nerf anybody!” mentality comes from: Players that deliberately use the easy guys and like having the extra advantage (as well as players of lesser characters that are masochists and “enjoy the challenge.”)
People that say “just bring everyone up to Sagat level” either don’t understand the game and the stupidity that would result of actually attempting to do that…or they know that Capcom can’t/won’t actually do it and its just their more respectable way of saying “I dont care what you do, just make sure my guy is still at an advantage.”
Everything You post makes perfect sense…well done :tup:
problem is i doubt they are going to nerf Ryu nor Sagat. If next iteration were SFV, it would be plausible, but SSFIV would be a version of SFIV, so i dont expect any nerf other than damage output tweaks here and there.
Sagat being able to TK across 3/4 of the screen is one thing, but who says that Ryu being good at everything wasn’t supposed to be in the game in the first place? Ono? Or did you develop SFIV?
Not to go on a tangent, but that’s a retarded claim to make. " Those things never should have been in the game in the first place". Why not? We’ve established that nothing about Ryu and Sagat is gamebreaking, and that Ryu is at all OP as opposed to just a really good character is something highly debatable in itself. So why are you qualified to say that Ryu shouldn’t have been a character good in all aspects with no real weaknesses (Which, incidentally, has always been the point of the character:rolleyes:)? Because you main Vega?
My heart bleeds for you, but Ryu shouldn’t be made worse just because you want to play with a character that sucks. Instead of trying to drag other people’s character down, how about you just lobby for yours and others to actually succeed at his intended design.
Also, the whole ‘braindead easy’ thing is tired, stupid, and completely untrue. I don’t play Sagat, so I’ll refrain from comment on how easy he is to play, but I work for all my victories over a player my skill level or greater, thank you very much. If Ryu’s so easy to win with, why are only a handful of top players, Japan or stateside, winning with him?
It sounds like an excuse. “My Vega (or insert lower tier character here) lost to your Ryu, but it’s okay, and you’re the scrub, not me, because my character is one of the worst (or insert tier level here) characters in the game, and Ryu is braindead easy to win with”.
If that’s the case, try him out. It’s easy to talk about winning with him when you’re not the one doing it. Be prepared for a rude awakening when you realize that it’s not going to make that much of a difference. You may say that your opinion concerning him doesn’t contain any personal preference, but all you’ve got is opinions, and your comparisons are all to other characters regardless. How is a generic, nondescript “Make Ryu worse” or “Give Ryu a weakness”, a suggestion for improving the game, as opposed to a suggestion for making a character easier to beat for you?
Great, that probably means Rufus needs a damage nerf on his ultra. We’re talking about Ryu at the moment, you’re getting no where by deflecting the criticism onto Rufus. Also, Ryu has many more set ups than Rufus. Oh, and people bitch all the time about Rufus’s ultra set ups, open your eyes. I see people bitch about Rufus almost as much as Ryu. I think you’re forgetting we’re on a RYU thread, broseph.
If you look further back into this thread I bring up the fact that Ryu players generally like to say “well look at Sagat he’s even more over powered so you should stop criticizing Ryu.” You’re essentially doing the same thing with Rufus and that’s faulty logic. Just because character X is overpowered doesn’t mean it’s OK for Ryu to be overpowered.
Who said I’m getting smashed by Ryu players? I’ve stated like 5 times already I don’t want these top tier characters to have less options or get any nerfs outside of Sagat getting less damage on some of his normals and ultra. I want all characters to have a lot of good options because a character with a lot of good options is more fun to play since it makes their game much more deep.
i’d have to say the ability to mash SRK/TU, FADC, then Ultra, is sort of gamebreaking. Ryu and Sagat seem like they should be fighting Jago and Kilgore rather than Chun Li and Bison, with all the ‘combo breakers’ out there.
Ill give you 30 dollars and a pregnant pig to make that happen. Imagine?! Put chief thunder vs abel and ill double the pigs.
Okay… have you even bothered to play Hyper Fighting? No? Then you obviously don’t know why we’re arguing this.
Hyper Fighting was a game where every character pretty much had crazy shit along the lines of “Tiger Uppercut 3/4ths of the screen away.” Maybe not the same thing, but they had pretty crazy stupid shit for each character… and that shit was BALANCED. ST is the same thing. The Balrog 1 Frame Throw loop, Dhalsim fuckin shenanigans. Hell, have you people even played O. Sagat? Ryu’s overpowered? bullshit.
Any other games? What? VF5, 2i, all those other crazy games… What you guys aren’t understand is all the shit Ryu has he has had in OTHER GAMES. Save for the uppercut FADC, which they aren’t taking out. They reduced his damage output compared to the rest of the cast in this game as well.
Explain this to me… Why is it that everybody at SHGLbmx’s WnF’s session-- the session where some of the best in SoCAL attend, with valle included-- are comfortable with Ryu matchups. On the first day Alex started the whole thing-- everybody listed their easiest matchups and almost each one had “Ryu” on their list.
How are you guys having such a tough fucking time with this character? You’re doing shit wrong. The only thing crazy he really has in this game which he hasn’t had else where is the FADC ultra. His low forward, his fireball, his SRK, have all been nuts in other games, and they aren’t even close to as good in this game as they should be. How are you losing?
and don’t give me this bullshit that “we’re not losing, it’s the principal of it” – fuck off. Results speak for themselves. There was ONE Ryu in NCR, and there’s only ONE RYU on the top 10 list in Japan. There was NO Ryu’s in the Japanese Nationals. And SBO was won by a Viper and Rufus.
If you don’t want to listen, whatever. But Like I’ve said over every fucking page-- this shit is BASIC in competitive play. You’re not going to get anywhere if you don’t get over this. Really.
Fuck, Vega’s footsies downright BEAT Ryu’s quite easily. I don’t even play Vega and I can do it-- and that’s against one of the best Ryu’s in socal. How can you not do this?
Keep complaining. But I’m just going to say this. If come next game you get pissed at balance-- don’t fucking be surprised. NOTHING will make you people happy. Because even if they buff the fuck out of Vega, you guys aren’t going to win. Because I Will bet you 100 percent, you will face somebody like Yeb or Mike Ross or even Goaser who will just prove the same point I have. It’s your fault. Sorry, but you fucking suck. Unless your Vega or Guile, you should not be losing to Ryu this easily.
And for the record, take that “we pick easy characters to win” bullshit out of here. Go win a fucking tournament with Ryu and tell me it’s easy. Matter of fact, understand that I’ve played mid to low tier characters in every fucking fighting game, and I was set on picking Ryu no matter what for IV regardless of Tier listing. I picked him because his tools are ALWAYS universal… he can use the same 3 tools to win a match every single time, in EVERY FUCKING GAME. And that’s all I do.
Fireball
Uppercut
Low forward.
Hell, sometimes I don’t even need FADC. Just those three tools. If you’re complaining about the uppercut too-- you’re an idiot. It’s nerfed in IV already, and people are saying STUPID ass shit like “Give it more start up and less invincibility.” Which would ruin the entire BASIS of a SRK, because the whole point since DAY 1 of SFII has been that the SRK is suppose to punish you for predictability and stupid mistakes-- like jumping or using the same predictable strategy over and over again.
Low forward has always fucked people up in every game. I use in 3s and Ryu isn’t that good in 3s at all. You think Ryu vs Vega is stupid in this game? Have played Ryu vs Vega in ST? Do you know how FUCKING DUMB that match up is? And it still doesn’t give me nearly as much trouble as any characters in this game do.
I’m not even a top player and I’m having less trouble than you guys are. I’ve even started playing Guile and Ken, and I’m not having any troubles with Ryu.
Valle pretty much said all this shit pages ago, and I’m reinforcing his point, if you don’t want to listen to him, or me… then don’t bother. But this shit is true. When you lose to a Ryu at Evo, it’s not because he picked Ryu, it’s because you got outplayed.
deal with it.
Trade DP ultra is bullshit.
actually, you can safejump most shoto dps in the sf2 games but you cant in sf4 because they have faster start up now and jumps have more recovery. so it is not at all like ‘day 1 of sf2’
That’s a problem with reversals. And even still, if you cross up correctly, they CAN’T DP you. There’s an angle where all three SRK’s will whiff and not autocorrect. They eat a free combo.
But still, that’s a universal problem, so that should go in the universal game mechanics thread, instead of the Ryu thread. I just don’t get why it’s so hard for people to beat this character. I’m never afraid when I play a Ryu and I’m using Ken or Guile. Even with Guile I’m not all that afraid at all.
That’s why I’m so pissed.
As for Trade DP, I don’t know what to tell you. It sucks that that’s the way it is, but at the same time, you’re jumping at Ryu. So what do you expect. You shouldn’t have jumped in the first place. Tell you what, if I ever play you, I won’t trade DP, I’ll do a normal DP which does more damage-- and I’ll throw out my ultra pretty easy.
Part of me wants to find that chart from the EVO finals where someone calculated the ratio of times Daigo landed his ultra towards how many times he won the match. It’s on event hubs, and most of the rounds he won-- he didn’t land it. He just used basic shit.
I’m almost positive that jumps don’t have any recovery.